USA v. Keys: FBI Transcript

FD-302 (Rev.
5-8-10)
- 1 of 86 -23-5 Filed 12/13/13 Page 1 of 86 Case 2:13-cr-00082-KJM Document FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
D o c u me n t p a r t i c i p a n t s h a v ed i g i t a l l y s i g n e d . A l ls i g n a t u r e sh a v eb e e nv e r i f i e db ya c e r t i f i e dF B Ii n f o r ma t i o ns y s t e m.
CI AL R ECORD O FFI
Date of entry
08/05/2013
SA Cauthen listened to evidence items 1D1 and 1D2 containing recordings of an interview of Matthew Keys. SA Cauthen prepared the following based on his review of the items: PARTICIPANTS MK: Matthew Keys GA: Special Agent Gabriel F. Andrews JC: Special Agent John M. Cauthen ABBREVIATIONS UM1-14: Unknown Male Voice #1 through #14 UMS:Unknown Male Voices UI:Unintelligible JC: I think youre aware of what were going want to address. But you know [UI]. MK: Does the door need to be open? JC: No, thats why we want to go a different [UI]. This is a copy of your search warrant. Ok. MK: Ok. JC: Were going to give you plenty of time to read that. Were going to answer all of your questions. Before we do, even though were not going to arrest you, uh today, we are going to go through our standard Miranda warning. So, well read that to you. GA: So lets do that right now, just get it out of the way. So, this is basically [UI]. Before we talk to you, you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advice before you ask questions. You have a right to a
Investigation on File # by
10/04/2012
at
Secaucus, New Jersey, United States (, Other (Review Tape Recordings from Interview on 10/04/2012))
Date drafted
288A-SC-45485, 288A-LA-258500
07/18/2013
CAUTHEN JOHN M
This document contains neither recommendations nor conclusions of the FBI. It is the property of the FBI and is loaned to your agency; it and its contents are not to be distributed outside your agency.
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talk to a lawyer for advice before you ask questions. You have a right to a lawyer during your questioning. If you cant afford a lawyer, one will be appointed to you before any questioning. And, if you decide to answer questions now, at any point, you have the right to stop. Ok? MK: Yea. GA: And, this is all something wed read if you were to be under arrest. Again, youre not. [UI] MK: Before we all start. JC: Tell you what, were going to answer all of your questions. I can tell youre kind of [UI] unease a little bit. MK: I had people wake me up in the middle of the night. [Laughter] JC: And, and thats completely understandable. So, were just, were just going to [UI]. Uh, by the way, Im John Cauthen. You probably recognize [UI] MK: Matthew. I have spoken with you before. JC: You have. MK: Yes, I have. JC: So, Ill tell you what. MK: Four stories and not. JC: What we want to do here is put you at ease. Answer all of your questions. MK: Mmm hmm. JC: And, uh, and I think we want to work with you on this, ok? Cause I think you have a lot of things you want to tell us, and well explain everything to you. Alright? GA: [UI] JC: What we want to do is MK: Ummm. JC: -- take you to a place where youre not with your roommates and [UI] for you.
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for you. MK: You know what, we can do either. It doesnt matter to me. JC: Ok, well, what are you more comfortable with? MK: I am JC:Ill tell you what, you know what. Lets go to another location. Just to make it easy for . They got another room, I think. And then MK: I, I think I would rather be here. JC: Ok. MK: If thats ok. JC: Ok, then thats what we want to do. Alright. You want to do it in this room? Or? MK: We can do it in here if you like as long as I dont have anything to be worried about. And, I dont, I want to make sure you guys dont have anything youre worried about. JC: Well, uh MK: Well be ok. JC: I think we cleared the room. Do you have anything dangerous in the room or anything? MK: No. JC: Ok. Do you have a chair or something we can sit on or? MK: I dont. We can grab one from the dining room. JC: Thank you. Lets get some chairs. Im going to take my jacket off if thats ok. MK: And, I apologize for the mess. JC:Oh, I understand. And, youve only been here about a month as I understand? Is that right? GA: [UI] JC: So, uh.
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JC: So, uh. [UI Portion -- 0:00:19 seconds] JC: So, you know why were here, right? MK: Yes, I know. [UI] JC: I know, Im, Im sorry. And, you know, I dont want to blow this thing out of proportion either. I mean MK: You have a job to do, and I have a job to do so I understand. JC: Ok. Heres the thing. Uh, I think after you go through that. Im going to answer all your questions and my partner here, Gabe, hes from Los Angeles FBI. MK: Hi Gabe. Matthew. GA: How you doing Matt? JC: Hes, were going to be as helpful as we can [UI] which I know is difficult for you. MK: Can I take a look at this real quick? JC: Yea. MK: I just JC: Yea, Ill talk to you as were going. MK I just want to scan through it. JC: Yea. So, uh GA: One of the things I wanted to bring up to you, Im sure you recognize this. MK: Yes, I have a copy of it on my desk. GA: Nice. Ive been reading through it a bit myself. Uh, you know I saw the, the Twitter post where you mentioned the book and gave her a plug, and she responded and MK: [UI]? GA: Yea. MK: Yea.
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MK: Yea. GA: In the back she actually, as you mentioned here briefly, that, you know Keys was invited to observe the goings on in the InternetFeds room December 2010 to January 2011 using the name AESCRACKED. You, uh, provided her a number of logs to help her with [UI]. [UI Portion 00:00:09 seconds] GA: -- She picked it up from your logs. MK: I think she picked it from the logs. JC:So, you just gave her the raw logs showing it was AESCRACKED and all the chats with everything? MK: I gave her some of the raw chat logs, correct. JC: Ok. Oh, some of them. So, you didnt give her everything? Alright. MK: I dont remember if I gave her everything that I had. JC: Alright. MK: I took quite a few logs while I was, while I was in the chat room. JC: Well, weve got a number of the logs in there, uh, as well, that youre going to be able to read. MK: I saw some of those [UI]. JC: I think thats from your But, weve actually got the raw cuts. We got the whole thing, essentially is the bottom line. Uh, your conversation. GA: When you were doing this, did you use other usernames other than AESCRACKED? MK: I may have. To be honest with you, I dont remember. GA: You dont recall off the top of your head? MK: I, I It happened a year and a half ago. JC: Yea. GA: I understand. JC: Well, heres what we want to do here today, Matt. We want your help in terms of
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JC: Well, heres what we want to do here today, Matt. We want your help in terms of MK: There were some on one page that I saw here. The first or second page and [UI]. JC: Theres a probable cause statement that shows some of the logs. This is not everything obviously. And, items that were going to be taking. MK: These are not me. JC: Ok. MK: Um. GA: Right. JC: Well, thats why we want And, some of those people you actually did talk to those people and thats a large part of why were here today. MK: Like some of these names I dont even recognize. JC: And, thats why we want to talk to you, too. Because, you know, there still are people out there. MK: Yea. JC: And, youve heard about Sabu, and all of those guys that have been wrapped up and a lot of the folks overseas. And, you did have some involvement with those folks so were going to ask for two things. One is were going to ask for your help in what you can help us with on those folks. Two is and this is extremely important and were going to ask for extreme candor. I mean, we want you to be truthful and not mislead us. And, I dont think youre going to want to do that. MK: Define extreme candor. JC: Well, not trying to lie. I dont think youre going to do that. You dont seem like the kind of guy who wants to do that, and I think what happened in the past was just a mistake and youre going to want to move past that and help us out. Am I, am I right in that? MK: Yea. JC: Ok. So, so that MK: What are the consequences?
JC: Well, I mean, you can read that I dont, I dont know what the
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JC: Well, I mean, you can read that I dont, I dont know what the consequences are. I mean, heres the bottom line. Well cover the whole thing, but the bottom line is weve got two issues. Uh, the first issue is how you helped these guys in Anonymous. They actually did cause some damage. No, you didnt actually do the hack, but you did give them the passwords to Fox, to the CMS. And, and thats an issue we got to address. And, so were going to expect you be candid about that because we got those records, and we can prove that. You understand? GA: Youll be able to keep this, by the way. So this [UI]. JC: Yea, this is your copy. GA: But, youll have this when we leave. JC: So MK: Remind me again what your name was? GA: Its Gabriel. JC: Its Gabe. Gabriel. JC: Im John. JC: Youre not going to forget that. MK: No, your name I know who you are. JC: I know. MK: Yea. JC: So MK: What do you do Gabriel? GA: Um, same thing as John, basically. MK: Ok. JC: But, heres the thing, I mean we, we already know in the scheme of things where you stand and how you can help us, and thats all were going to ask you. Just, you know, how can you help us. Were going to ask for, you know, we got a search warrant actually to get all of the logs off your
computer. Ok. But, its going to help us a lot if you just tell us where
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computer. Ok. But, its going to help us a lot if you just tell us where those logs are. If theres more. If youve got them in the cloud, or if youve just got them on the computer. MK: I can give you, um, as far as. There, there is a hard drive that, um, has a zip file with the logs that I kept that I, I remind, you know, I JC: Ok. Yea. MK: This computer I didnt own at the time if you want to take a look at it. JC: Alright. MK: I mean youre going to anyway. Uhm JC: Is the zip file encrypted, or? MK: No. JC: So, its a straight. Where is that hard drive? MK: I believe its in there. JC: Ok. So, you know what were going to do. MK: And, I can show you on the computer how to get access to those. JC: Ok. Well, trust me when I say I dont want to turn your life upside down and make this more difficult for you than it is cause I understand that youre probably mildly upset. But, well work with you on it, ok? To the extent that we can leave you with this computer, well do that. And, well get those logs because thats all were really asking for and then your cooperation. And, then finally, uh, you know, we dont want any minimization in terms of what your role was, you know. Sometimes people do have a tendency to, uh, kind of minimize what they did. And MK: I dont know anything about computer hacking. JC: I know. MK: Thats the [UI]. JC: And, we believe that. We believe that. Having said that, it did happen, and it wouldnt have happened without your help. So, we need you to take
responsibility in the sense that if you do try to kind of say, well, I
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responsibility in the sense that if you do try to kind of say, well, I didnt do it, or I didnt have a significant role in it. Still 6 oclock? What time you got to go to work? MK: Uh, I had to be up at 8. JC: Alright, so we got some time. MK: Yea. JC: But, what Im saying is, you know, were going to cover everything from the time you left Fox News, ok? All the way through. And, at the end of the day, you know, we just want you to [UI] and be truthful about everything. And, and to the extent that you do feel some remorse, honestly Matt, that goes a long way with people who look at people like yourself who are normal, decent people that just made a mistake. And, you had circumstances at the time that might have caused that mistake, and thats understandable. So, I think you are going to be remorseful. I think youre going to tell the truth and, uh, and, thats all worthy. Ok? MK: Yea. GA: [UI] you can help us catch some of the other guys too. JC: Which is MK: The concern that I have is more or less for my career. You know, I know how these things JC: Were going to work with you to the extent that we can. Were not here to harm your career. Ok? Our goal is to obtain the truth. MK: Right. JC: Ok? So, like I said today. Were going to leave here today, and we are and youre going to leave here today. Youre not going to jail today. Ok? MK: Key word being today. JC: Well, you know, even I cant predict the future. But, heres what I can predict. Uh, you know, knowing your role in it, unless there is something I dont know, ok, because as far as we can tell at this point, and you know, were going to find it out as we look at your stuff and your computers even more I guess if theres something we dont know. But, we know what happened at Fox40 News with the emails and essentially the CMS server, your access of passwords, and your involvement with Anonymous. Ok. MK: Which was minimal, at, at best.
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MK: Which was minimal, at, at best. JC: You were not a hacker, per se, but at the end of the day, you did take emails from Fox40 that you shouldnt have, ok. And, screw with them and cause them consternation. MK: Hey, I didnt really take JC: Well, stop for a second. And, then, more importantly, and the real reason were here is giving the passwords to those guys that caused the, to the, uh, that ultimately resulted in the hack at the LA Times. You didnt do the hack, but you gave them the passwords. And, you cant unwind that. And, whatever the moment or cause, I, we can, we can understand what happened. MK: Yea JC: Alright. So, thats essentially is there anything else that, beyond that? MK: No. I didnt have access to anything else. JC: Ok. Well, Gabe is going I am going to go get MK: My involvement was, involvement with them, ended kind of rough. JC: Yea, I understand. And, thats probably to a large extent why we even ended up here today because it was a contentious relationship with, with them, and its understandable. MK: Well, they were upset that stuff was getting out that they didnt want to get out. I mean, as youre probably aware. JC: Sure. I dont know all of the details so, were going, I mean what we would like to do MK: I, unfortunately, dont remember all of the details. JC: Well refresh your memory of what we know, and to the, and uh, is it ok if we take some notes? MK: Yea. JC: Ok. Gabe, Im going to get a chair for you to sit in and make some notes if thats ok. GA: Yea, thank you.
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JC: Ill be right back. JC: Oh, I got the wrong room. JC: This is going to go pretty easy. He, uh, hes got an Apple thats on, its not encrypted. Hes cooperating, but he says this things new. So, what I might do is just, uh. I dont think were even going to need it. Hes got a hard drive which has all his stuff on it. UM1: Oh. JC: So, Im thinking we preview that on site. If its got all the logs we take that hard drive. UM1: Ok. JC: So I would fire up a laptop. Its a zip file. UM1: Do you have a Can you give me, can you bring out the hard drive? Or JC: Yea. UM1: Find out what the interface is just so I know. JC: Yea. UM1: [UI] JC: Ill get the [UI]. Ill get the hard drive and bring it out. UM1: And, theres another Apple in the closet. JC: Oh ok. [UI] Its, its going to be fine. UM2: [UI] JC: Oh yea, Ill ask him if he wants [UI]. So, what do we got in the fridge? Coke, something? UM2: [UI] JC: Alright. UM2: [UI] JC: Alright.
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UM2: [UI] JC: Sorry about that. Did you want something to drink, Matt? Or some water? I know theres a Coke in the fridge or something. MK: No, but in the fridge theres a water jug thats got a red cap on it. JC: Can I get that for you? MK: Yes, please. JC: Alright. Water bottle in the fridge, red cap. [Pause 00:00:36 seconds] MK: [UI] water. JC: [Laughter] MK: [UI] (FBI Note: About this time the second recording commenced Evidence Item 1D1) JC: Its alright. MK: Um, otherwise, right now I probably would have helped. Um. One of the things that I did before I joined Reuters was I invited him to have coffee. Tribune Company [UI] Reuters client. Um, I decided that if I were to get the job at Reuters I would want there to be some closure and as little animosity as possible. So, I invited him out, and we didnt talk, you know, about anything other than the industry, what was happening at the station, what was going on with what I was doing. At the time I worked at ABC. And, um, I think it was very cordial. We left on good terms. I sent him a few emails and havent heard from him most of the time. Uh, but, some of the times he was very responsive. You know, I told him, I sent him an email when I started at Reuters saying this is my mailing address, Im still getting mail to my old address, you need to have these for your records. GA: Ok. MK: Um, so I would say that when my employment ended, it ended kind of gruff. And, then, it eventually, you know. It got better. Time, time makes everything better. So GA: Sure. Ok. So, that happened about when then? You came out here sometime around January, right?
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MK: January 18. GA: So, you sat down with him about January of this year. JC: And, who was that? MK: Brandon. JC: Ok. MK: I sat down with him, um, middle of December of the previous year when I was still living in California. And, that was the only time that he and I sort of had a face-to-face after I had left Fox. And, like I said, it was a very pleasant meeting. We were very cordial. Um, if you were some stranger looking at us at the coffee shop, you would never have known that you know he had let me go. GA: So, not too many cups of hot coffee thrown at one another. MK: No, it was very nice. Brandon is JC: Time, time does heal wounds, doesnt it? MK: Well, Brandon is a very nice guy. And, you know, I think he thought, he thought that I was a very nice guy, too. So JC: Well MK: And, I JC: I think you are, too, yea. MK: We, we both understood what happened, you know. It took me a while because I was very upset. GA: Mmm hmm. MK: But, we both understand that the reason why, you know. We, we both understood the reason why it happened. GA: What was that? MK: Well, I think we just had different, different ideas as to how we wanted to achieve that end-goal, you know. Ideally, they wanted to build a news website that was backed off of, you know, cheap content, so to say. To get, [clears throat]. Excuse me. To get paid to use that, they would then turn around and sell ads and
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turn around and sell ads and JC: Mmm hmm. MK: And, I wanted to build smart content, and they wanted to go for easy content if that makes sense. It would be the di- , it would be like saying you wanted to try to get traffic for Charlie Rose interviews, and they wanted to get traffic for cat videos. So [UI] JC: Yea. MK: Does that analogy make sense? JC: Uh, perfectly. MK: Im trying to explain it to people that might not JC: Well, weve got a pretty good sense because weve, weve read your, uh, you know, Producer Matthew pages. So, Ive got a pretty good sense of professionally where youre coming from. And, uh, how serious you take your job and, and uh MK: Well, thats why I think [UI]. JC: -- your background in it. MK: -- concern me[UI]. JC: Huh? MK: I said thats why I things like this kind of concern me. JC: Well, and, and we are But, it is what it is. We right thing. So, uh, when probably November. It was certainly, we can appreciate it. So, you know. cant change what happened. So, youre doing the you left, this would, this would have been 2010, on
MK: I left, I left middle of October 21, I think of 2010 JC: Ok. Thats right. MK: 2011. JC: And, uh MK: 2010. GA: 2010 MK: Yea.
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MK: Yea. JC: You left, and so, the first thing I noticed is we had this issue with the email or there was an argument with Brandon about the Facebook and Twitter accounts. And, then you had an issue, and then the emails started. And, then Anonymous. Now, I want to make sure I got that sequence right. When you talked, when you first got involved with Anonymous, you know, what was, what was going on in your mind at the time? And, what happened exactly in that fall period? In the turmoil of MK: I was bored and I felt stuck. And, I have always sort of been interested in trying to get to like the scene of a story. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: Or, to the heart of the story. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: And, this was a group that I really didnt know a whole lot about. I kind of learned about it when the rest of common America heard about it. JC: Sure. MK: This attack, uh, this PayPal attack on Visa and Mastercard and PayPal and. Sorry, this WikiLeaks attack on Visa and Mastercard and PayPal. Um, let me just start off by saying, I have no knowledge of anybody involved in WikiLeaks. Uh JC: [Laughter] MK: I as a journalist have read their material, you know. Um. JC: Thats fine. MK: Im not privy to any material that theyre coming out with in the future. Im not privy to any material [UI] JC: Were not here for that, obviously. But, I appreciate you mentioning that. MK: Just wanted to get that out. Um, so I popped into the chat room that was a, the generic operational chat room for whatever that happened to be at the time. JC: And, did you use, what, did, how did, howd you pop in? I mean are you a cha-, are you an IRC guy, or how did
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MK: Ive used IRC in the past. JC: Now, what did ? MK: Um. JC: What application did you use for IRC? MK: Colloquy. JC: Colloquy? MK: Does that sound right? JC: Ok. And, when you first popped in, uh, did you just pop in as a, as a lurker? MK: Initially, yea. JC: And, what was your user ID at that time? MK: I think that was the AESCRACKED one. JC: Ok. MK: It may have been something else, but I think thats what I was using. JC: How did you come up with AESCRACKED? Was that part of a design to kind of appeal to the hacker community? MK: Part of it. Yea. The passwords that, there was, there was a data file that was released by I think by WikiLeaks by a torrent site that had the diplomatic cables. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: And, it was locked with AES encryption. JC: Ok. MK: I didnt know what that was at the time. JC: Ok. MK: I know they would. JC: Yea. MK: And, so.
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MK: And, so. JC: So, it was in part MK: Kind of like, kind of like what people do when theyre interrogating another person, you talk at their level. JC: Uh huh. MK: Um, we do that as journalists. JC: Sure. MK: We talk at the level. Um, and that means, you know, part of that is just appearance, you know. If you go to a dressy event, you dress appropriate. If you go to an event thats a little more casual, you dress casual. You, you look the part for whatever the appropriate scenario might be. I didnt mean, I, you know, I dont think that, especially the people that would talk to me, I dont think they ever got the sense that I knew most of the time what was going on. JC: So MK: Would you mind if I turned this fan off? JC: Of course, go ahead. [Movement, shuffling] JC: Oh ok. Well, if you want to put something else on. Thats ok too. MK: Yea, I think theres a sweat jacket [UI]. JC: Yea. [Shuffling] MK: And, theres nothing in here either. GA: Oh. MK: If youd like to try. JC: Yea, we can do that. MK: Um, so when [UI]at the time [UI] you look the part[UI]. JC: Mmm hmm.
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JC: Mmm hmm. MK: If youre going to a county fair, you dress down. If youre going to a dressy event, you dress up. And, of course, thats irrelevant with what I was doing because I was doing this from my bedroom in Sacramento. Youre based in Sacramento, correct? JC: Yea. MK: Ok. JC: So, were you logging at that point trying to save a log of the idea of kind of doing the research on this? MK: I think my computer was probably saving something, but I wasnt. JC: Ok. Not intentionally, youre just researching at this point. MK: I had, um, you know there are options on Colloquy where it can save a log. JC: Yea. MK: And, I had gone through and turned them all off. JC: Ok. MK: Um. JC: Why did you do that? MK: Because I knew that if I did have something and I had text logs that detect, you know, if I were to bring these to somebody. I am just a web producer that worked at Fox, you know. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: Im not, you know, a deputy social media editor for Reuters. Um, what kind of pull would I have? And, I knew that somebody looking at those text documents would go, Those have been altered. Uh, Or, those could have been altered. JC: Ah, yes. MK: I should say. Um. JC: Is that, what, why I am not sure Im following. Thats why you turned it off or didnt want to do the logging or? MK: I didnt want to do the logging because I didnt know what was going to
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MK: I didnt want to do the logging because I didnt know what was going to happen. JC: Ok. MK: And, I didnt want anything incriminating left on my computer that you know could be tied to my name or may not have been tied to my name. I felt like it was at the time it wasnt a completely rational thought, but I thought that maybe that would give me an extra layer of protection JC: Ok. MK: -- between what they were doing and what I was doing at the time. What they were doing was JC: Yes. MK: -- attempting to do some damage. JC: Yes. MK: What I was doing was mainly just being an observer. JC: Right and that wasnt your intention at that, at that point, certainly. MK: Eventually, later on, when I did start taking logs, it, I didnt do those with text either. There might be one or two text logs that I took just because the data was so gratuitous that there would have been no way to have captured it in a text file. JC: Sure. MK: So, which is why, and I, I know you g-, Ive seen these here. You have screen grabs that JC: Your screen grabs. So, you were doing screen grabs. GA: Look like this JC: Yea[UI] MK: You, its harder to manipulate JC: Yea. MK: -- an image, and when an image is manipulated you can usually run it through software and detect whether or not it has. JC: Mmm hmm.
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JC: Mmm hmm. MK: As with that, that was obviously manipulated because it was redacted. JC: Sure. MK: Um. But, when youre forward with a journalist like Parmy and you say something has been redacted, you know. Theyre usually a little more JC: Yes. MK: There a little more, uh JC: Its more credible. It has, it has more weight. MK: Right, exactly. JC: Yea. MK: Right. So, initially going in there as, as a lurker, and I think it was in, I want to say their, their room at the time was like Operation Payback or something like that. JC: Ok. GA: May I ask, before we go, how did you first find out like where to go? MK: Twitter. MK: And, this was two years ago before Twitter JC: Became famous. Yea. MK: -- is what it is now. I mean it is, it was JC: It had started, but yea. MK: It had started to gain a sense because, you know, Obama and Oprah had joined. [Laughter] JC: [Laughter] MK: There were so many people on it. Um. But, it wasnt being used in sort of the sense that its being used now. JC: Not as a communication medium, no. MK: Where you had like 17,000 Tweets between Big Bird last night, you know, because of the debate. Um. That didnt happen two years ago. Instead you
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because of the debate. Um. That didnt happen two years ago. Instead you had people actually having a discussion, and in monitoring the discussion that was going on on Twitter. I mean you still have people that are having discussion. I dont want to sound, um [rumbling noise]. Whats going on? JC: I dont know. And, uh, theyre, uh, were not here, theyre not going wreck it, so dont worry. Itll be GA: If anything, theyre moving a chair back in towards the table or something along those lines. JC: If you want to go out and, and see whats going on, I dont have a problem with it. MK: No. JC: So, uh, you, you, you got it from Twitter, you went to Operation Payback, youre, youre there. MK: There Twitter account, there was a Twitter account that had been set up, and they were mentioning things like the Low Orbit Ion Cannon an, which I still dont really understand what that is or how that operates orI just know its a thing. JC: And, so you didnt do any type of denial of service attacks? MK: No. JC: Ok. MK: No. JC: So, youre clearly, uh, just at this point really just researching it and trying to understand where theyre coming from, talk to people. Who did you meet? Do you remember anybody? MK: I dont remember anybody that I met in the chat room. JC: Ok. MK: I think I was trying to make a little bit of a noise and it, nothing jumped out. Um. JC: Hard to do in that group. MK: Well, its hard to do in general because there was so much interest in it that you had, you know, that, at the time, I dont think there was like a press room set up.
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a press room set up. JC: Yea. MK: Or, you know, like at one point they did create a press room where journalists could go in there and talk to them and they would it was sort of like spin alley JC: Yea. MK: -- for the, for Anonymous. And, I remember, um, you know, just throwing things out there. I, I dont remember what was said, and just not getting any kind of reaction. JC: Alright. MK: And, had I said, you know, Im Matthew from CNN or Im Matthew from you know this big news organization, they would have latched on I think a little bit more. But JC: Maybe. MK: [UI] Im Matthew the unemployed journalist, you know. Theyre more interested in how you can help them than they are in JC: Of course. MK: Um, you know any kind of story that you would want to do. JC: I think you have a good insight into who you were talking with there. MK: I mean, it, its hard to sort of JC: How much time out of the day were you spending doing this? Is this pretty much the bulk of your day as youre doing on the computer, still doing your MK: When I was JC: -- keeping busy. MK: When I was at Fox, I took about two months to sort of not do anything, you know. I, I really didnt know what to do. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: I had never been unemployed before. It was something that I was kind of bracing for, and people are like, I knew, I had a feeling it was going to
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bracing for, and people are like, I knew, I had a feeling it was going to happen. You know there were changes that were happening at the company. There were people that were getting let go. A lot of the innovative people that they brought on initially were being let go. And, um, rightly so, for reasons that, you know, they should have been let go for, for sending [UI] emails and for, you know, not meeting certain initiatives. But, I just knew that there was a cleaning of house that was taking place, and I felt like at any point Im going to become a victim of this. And, two or three weeks later it happened. JC: Sure. So, youre spending a lot of time At some point you did actually meet some folks though and did get some private message and chats with folks, uh. MK: In the chat room? JC: Well, from the chat room. Or, in the chat room. You were actually communicating, and MK: Or on the IRC server well say JC: Yea. MK: [UI]. Yea, um, I, I threw something out there in the main chat room, and I again, forgive, I dont remember what it was. JC: I understand. MK: Um, Im sure you have logs of it somewhere. JC: We do, and I, I dont wanna, uh, prompt your memory. Im trying to get your recollection, so. MK: To the extent of you know that I used to work at Fox or, you know, I have something or other from Fox, or I tried far, to play the Fox, the Fox part high. JC: Yea. MK: And, it was, it was playing to ignorance more than anything because you I dont want to say too much because my roommate works for Fox. JC: Right. MK: But, um. JC: Its ok
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MK: You understand how the public perception of JC: Of course. MK: -- Fox News is JC: Of course. MK: Um, and so to get their attention that way. JC: Yea. Did that work? MK: It worked with Sabu. JC: Ok. MK: He reached out to me, and he said what do you have? JC: Alright, so MK: And, then JC: Did you realize at the time who you were talking with? MK: I didnt realize at the time who I was, I didnt realize who I was talking with until March 6th. JC: Oh ok. [Laughter] MK: So. JC: Well, I didnt mean specifically. Did you recognize his significance in the Anonymous community MK: No. JC: -- as a talented hacker. MK: I didnt recognize anybody doing anything at the time. JC: Ok. MK: It really wasnt until, um, that night that he invited me into the InternetFeds room. And, it was, it came from that sort of 15-minute conversation that I had where. JC: Well, lets talk about that then because that seems to be kind of a key, key thing.
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key, key thing. MK: I, I told him that I had credentials for their CMS. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: And, he asked for them. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: And, I gave them to him. JC: Right. MK: Um. JC: Why did you do that? MK: Because I thought they didnt work. JC: Ok. Now, that doesnt really square with what you were saying because, and, and Im going to preface it because its been important that we have complete candor and we talked about minimization, ok. Because MK: I understand this, Im trying to remember. JC: Youre trying to remember. MK: Right, Im not trying to deceive [UI]. JC: Because my and I and heres my impression. And, and it would certainly be understandable how angry you would be at Fox News still, you know, Fox40, particularly. And, and how, uh your desire to essentially fuck em would be relevant. And, I think its that part of how you said it in the logs. MK: That was, I remember saying that later on down the line. JC: Ok. MK: Um. JC: So, in the first instance MK: I had access to several different sets of credentials for the same platform. JC: Because you gave them instructions, you walked them through
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JC: Because you gave them instructions, you walked them through MK: I JC: -- how to use it. Do you remember that? MK: I recall offering some guidance. JC: Ok. MK: The other thing is that at, at Tribune at that point anyways things had been changing so much in terms of our CMS product, our, our online product. We were re-launching our website every six months when I was there. We were going from CMS to CMS to CMS. JC: Ok. MK: And, at the time JC: Well, I guess, the only reason Im stopping you is because I dont want you to go down the path of I didnt think that they were going to do anything with that because I dont think thats true. MK: No. JC: And, I, I dont MK: But, what, what I thought they were going to do with it is I thought they would find some use for it. JC: Ok. Yea. MK: It wasnt, it wasnt JC: I mean its not like you expect them to take out the entire network and destroy the company. MK: From what, from what I can remember, there was a set of credentials that I gave them. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: That didnt work for me. Um. There were other credentials that I gave them that did work. Um, that I knew worked and expected them to use. At the time, though, I was JC: This was in the first instance that were talking about. MK: From what I can remember on the first instance.
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MK: From what I can remember on the first instance. JC: Ok. MK: the how use Yea. Because I didnt think that they would work. But, understanding or maybe the lack of understanding to this matter how hackers work and the hacking community works. I figured if anybody can figure out how to these.
JC: Theyre still going to be able to make it efficient. And, that would build your credibility with the organization, perhaps? Or, is it, or are we still to screw with Fox or is it a little of both? MK: I, I [sigh]. I think to be completely honest given the mindset, I think it was probably a little bit of both. JC: I understand. I understand. Uh, ok, so were in InternetFeds. Its with with Sabu. You dont really know how important he is yet. MK: Im invited into the room that night, the first night that Im on the chat room. And, I didnt know what I was looking at. There were a lot of instances where I didnt know what I was looking at. But, my game was to find out what was going on. Um, my intention quickly shifted from lets give these hackers who dont get caught and can do some damage something. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: It quickly shifted from that to I think I struck upon something here that people dont know about that maybe people should know about. Um, and, I couldnt let them see that or know that. Um. JC: So, was this, is this on the night where they talked about the Gawker hack and this type of thing. Or, is this, is this a later[UI]. MK: No, I think, I think if I remember correctly the Gawker discussions came up a few days later. JC: Yea, ok. MK: Um, I think what was March 11th that they, not March 11th. It was, um JC: Like December. MK: It was like December 11th or December JC: December 10th or 11th. MK: You know it was December that they released the Gawker password dump that Kayla released.
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that Kayla released. JC: Right. MK: The, the dump, and I didnt know that was coming. I didnt have prior knowledge that that was going to happen. I kind of found out about it when everybody else did. JC: Ok. MK: Um, but what I did know was that, uh, or let me say it this way. What, what I was able to determine in monitoring the InternetFeds chat room was that Kayla was taking a lot of credit for what happened with Gawker. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: I dont want to get too ahead of myself. Later on down the line I learned that Kayla had an accomplice with the Gawker hack. And, I think his name was Garrett. Does that sound familiar? JC: Yea. MK: Yea. Um, Garrett told me some things about him or her. I dont entirely remember what they are, and unfortunately, I didnt save a lot of that conversation. I saved some of it. JC: Ok. MK: Um. JC; Is that on this hard drive? MK: It may be. JC: Ok. MK: To be honest, I dont remember. It, it JC: Theres another laptop out there. Is that your previous laptop? MK: It is, but I dont think I did anything with it, um. I cant recall doing anything with Anonymous on it. There may be some stuff on there, though. JC: Ok. MK: And, youre welcome to take a look at. Well, youre going to anyway. [Laughter]
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[Laughter] JC: Well, you know what, the fact that youre, youre willing to help us find it on there that goes a long way. I mean, that does go a long way more than you MK: John, I remember talking to you in April of 2011. And, you called me as I was moving. JC: Yea. MK: I dont know if you knew at the time that I was moving. JC: Yea. MK: Um, you called me as I was moving back in with my grandmother. And, I remember telling you at the time that, you know, as far as it came to what, you know, at the time, I was working on a story with The Guardian on what had happened. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: [UI]. Um, but I remember telling you that, you know, whatever you wanted, what- whatever I could give you, that I would. And, that, you know, that offer never really was rescinded. It was, it just got to a point where I started working in San Francisco, and there was no time that I had to dedicate to that. JC: I understand. MK: Please dont take personally the fact that your calls went unanswered and your emails went unanswered. The other thing was I was trying to figure out how to handle this. And, I never really got to a point where I could, you know. I, di- , as a new employee at Disney, its kind of weird to go up to them and say, I think need some legal counseling on how to handle this story, you know, that Im not working with on, you know, for your organization on. That its something that came out of something else. JC: I understand. MK: Um. JC: I mean, you know, Im like you. I mean youre professional. I am a professional, you know. Im just, uh MK: The difference is I think you know more about what youre doing than I did at the time about what I was doing.
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did at the time about what I was doing. JC: I understand. MK: Um. And, forgive me as I dont want you to take this the wrong way, you probably are a little more seasoned to know what youre doing, you know. And, have had more experience doing what youre doing. JC: Well, I appreciate your, uh, your, uh MK: Its not meant to be a compliment. JC: Comment. MK: Its just meant to say, its more or less to contrast the fact that I didnt know what I was doing. JC: Sure. MK: [Laughter] JC: Well, in your realm, you do know what youre doing. MK: I know JC: As a, as a MK: I know more about what Im doing now. JC: Yea. MK: I still am not entirely there. I still get know, for breaking certain rules that you know Reuters, that theyre not used to, but um, you to say I get in trouble in terms of like I get JC: Ok. MK: --or I get reprimanded or anything like that. JC: Yea. MK: But, its more or less like there are things that, you know, Reuters is certainly doing things, and I have a certain way doing things and maybe it doesnt always match, but sometimes JC: Understandable. MK: I think they see the incentive in what Im doing. Um, I dont think I was ever in a position like that with Disney, and so I felt kind of stuck in trouble at work, you that, there, I think even at know, its not, I dont want punished
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was ever in a position like that with Disney, and so I felt kind of stuck between this story that, you know, it was never my intention not to cooperate with people on. JC: Well, right now youre doing the right thing, and so. MK: Right now Im doing the right thing JC: Its MK: -- for you guys. [Laughter] JC: Well, it seems that way MK: [UI] Its necessarily going to be the right thing for JC: Heres the issue just to put your mind at ease. And, you know, I really cant put your mind at ease totally. But, uh, everybody appreciates honesty. Um, and at some point in time, were going to have to show this to a prosecutor, and its been my experience that prosecutors are people, too. And, people appreciate honesty. And, you know, some people makes a mistake, you know, I mean thats, thats human nature. And, you just said that at, you know, Reuters you make mistakes. People make mistakes. Its, its, its something that you can work through. So, and in the scheme of things MK: I would say, before we, before we continue with the, um, Monsegur case. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: Fox had that story before anybody else did, and I dont know what, why that was. But, given that my roommate works at Fox News. JC: Uh huh. MK: And, there are FBI agents out on the couch outside. JC: Uh huh. MK: Im very uncomfortable with that mix. JC: Ok. It has nothing to do with that, your, uh, roommate. MK: No, I understand. JC; Or, the Fox News. Yea. Im MK: As an editorial employee, though, you know [UI]. JC: Yea, well, hes not going to see the warrant. He doesnt have a copy of
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JC: Yea, well, hes not going to see the warrant. He doesnt have a copy of the warrant. GA: [UI] MK: We cant predict whats going to happen. JC: I cant predict anything. MK: [Laughter] [UI] JC: So, you know, heres the MK: I just wanted to make that clear. JC: Yea, I understand. You know what, were, our job is not to make news. Ok? MK: It doesnt mean it doesnt happen though. JC: I, I agree, but were, were not going to aggravate the circumstance with, you know, making news So, whatever happens, happens. Um, and I cant control the future. Im sorry. I just dont know whats going to happen. MK: No, I understand. I understand, completely. So, Sabu and I are chatting. Um, I give him a set of credentials that, frankly, I didnt think were going to work, but I didnt know. Um, per my recollection, he invites me to the room. Theres about, I think I did a head count at one point, one of the hackers executed some command line that showed you all of the people that had access to that room. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: And, there were between 33 and 36. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: There is an exact count on one of those logs that shows every username of every person that has access to that room. And, as far as I can remember those logs still exist. JC: Yea, they do. When you saw that, did your heart jump a little bit? MK: I didnt see it right away. JC: Oh ok.
MK: I mean its not something that they showed me on the first day.
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MK: I mean its not something that they showed me on the first day. JC: Ok. MK: I can tell you the first couple of days that I was in that room I didnt sleep well that night. JC: Because? MK: I had never been subjected to an environment as a journalist or just even as a human being. I, I just never seen what I saw in that room before. It took me aback. I wasnt expecting it. JC: What was it, what was it? Try to characterize it as best you can that caused the distress for you. MK: A group of individuals who could do significant damage who felt free discussing in the presence of people they didnt know, doing significant damage and not getting caught. JC: So, these were people that were malicious, and to a certain extent MK: I think they were malicious without a cause. JC: And, and dangerous. [Laughter] To the extent that they were kind of loose cannons? MK: What concerned me was, you know, I, I think early on I saw, you know, and I dont remember if it was that night or if it was, you know, over the course of a couple of days, but it became very clear to me, and this is something I told, you know, that I told Parmy, and Ive told a couple of other people. It became very clear to me that these were the people who were doing the most damage. The kind of things you would hear about on the news, you know, which unfortunately, I was not contributing to the news product at the time. Um, I mean I kind of was, and well get to that in a second. But, for the most part, I wasnt. Um. It, it was, it [sighs]. A few things stressed me out. That was, um. I mean its ,its still even just thinking about it, like the gravity of the skill that was in that room and blatant disregard for any kind of consequence. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: Was just, I had never seen anything before like, like that. JC: Sure. MK: I mean, it, it was just, it was something that was incredibly a new thing.
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thing. JC: I understand. MK: And, part of it was, you know, what could these people find out about me? You know. Im taking a terrific risk on two levels. One, being there, with them, taking a risk of, of them doing something. And, two, being there with them, and, you know, having it come across to the people who enforce the law. JC: Sure. MK: Now, I dont want that to be interpreted as, you know, I knew what he was doing was breaking the law. I really didnt at the time, you know. My rationale JC: But, at some point, you did. But, well get to that later, I suppose. MK: I think, you know, I [sighs]. I didnt do my research. I messed up there. I didnt look into it as much as I should have. JC: Mmm hmm. So, it was like the old boiling frog syndrome where you kind of just MK: I dont know what that means, but I started investigating a story before I did. JC: You didnt know what you were getting [UI]. MK: [UI] JC: And, it kind of built, and built, and built, and then before you knew it, you were. MK: And, I took some action before I did a proper background on it. JC: Ok. MK: My mentality was I have the keys to a house that were never taken away, you know. And, that was one thing that frustrated me about Tribune is that there were so many things that should have happened when my employment ended that didnt happen. JC: Yea. MK: You know, they didnt ask for my security key back. And for my house er, Im sorry into my house into my office. And, they didnt ask for, you know, they shut down my access to my email, my work email, which was one of
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know, they shut down my access to my email, my work email, which was one of the reasons I was upset that day. Um. JC: But, they didnt take the proper measures for security. MK: No. JC: They were very MK: And, it was one of the things when I was working there I had always told them they needed to do. JC: Yea. MK: You cant let an employee go and have a forward-facing content management system that anybody can access from the Internet and not take those credentials away. JC: Clearly. MK: I was going in manually as a web producer, and none of my job, my job is not information technology or anything JC: Mmm hmm. MK: --with computers and removing access to these profiles after, aft- long after people have left , that anybody could get access to, and the company never seemed concerned about it. JC: Yea. MK: Um, and that was frustrating working there. JC: Sure. MK: Um, because my concern was always something like, you know, a hacking attack or, or getting access to information, you know, would compromise the integrity of the brand, you know. It, it, it would look very bad to our viewers. It would look very bad to our, our other employees that we looked like we were incompetent. And, it wasnt because I was incompetent. It wasnt because my manager was incompetent. It was just because the process, there really wasnt one, I think, you know, one of a process. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: I dont want to ramble on about things that dont matter.
JC: [UI] matters.
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JC: [UI] matters. MK: The reason why I felt comfortable with the credentials is because they never deactivated it. JC: I understand. MK: And, they knew that I had it. JC: Yea. MK: This is not something that they didnt know I didnt have. They knew I had it, and they did nothing about it. JC: Sure. JC: Careless, lax on their part, but almost, did you count it as then its almost as if its your property since they let you have it. Or, not quite sure how you really felt about it. MK: Its not JC: Its hard to put yourself back in the mindset of that time. MK: It wasnt my property. It was, they were keys that I had access to. JC: Right. MK: Thats how I looked at it. I still had access toIt would be as if a server was a building. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: Its a physical object. JC: Sure. MK: You know, and I had a key to a physical building. Lets say I was the night manager at a retail store. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: And, they gave me the keys to the building to lock up at night. JC: Ok. MK: When you leave, youre supposed to take those keys back. You dont want that employee to still have access to the keys.
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that employee to still have access to the keys. JC: That seems logical. MK: It makes sense to us. JC: Yea. MK: We get it. We think that way. It doesnt make sense to them. JC: They didnt do it. MK: They dont think that way. And, for two and a half years, I tried to get them to think that way, and say, look, something could happen, you know, and you would really have no recourse for it. You know, you could say, you know, the servers are our property, none of the credentials were misappropriated as I saw in the complaint that was filed back in March. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: Well, actually, it was filed in August. JC: Yea. MK: [UI]available in March. Ive read all of that. Ive had access to PACER [Laughter]. Um, you know, you could say all of that, but at the end of the day, you have to answer for the fact that you didnt take those keys away. Was it misappropriated? It was misappropriated to the extent that I gave it to them. JC: Right. MK: You know. But, was it really? The company gave me access to a product and didnt take it away. JC: I understand. MK: You know. And, it wasnt even the fact that they didnt take some of it away. They didnt take anything away. JC: Alright. Clear, well, and its been, its been over a month though, at least. Because October, November, here you are going MK: It was at least a month and a half to two months. And JC: I can hear some noise out Im going to step outside because its distracting, and uh, uh, talk to the [UI]. Ill be right back. [UI].
JC: [UI]. Hes talking freely, and uh. Im going to come out with the hard
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JC: [UI]. Hes talking freely, and uh. Im going to come out with the hard drive. UM4: Ok. JC: As soon as I can get it. But, uh, we dont need to do any searching UM4: We havent searched anything, so. JC: Ok. UM4: There are other computers, laptops, iPads, um. JC: [UI] UM4: The roommates say they dont, he doesnt have access to them. JC: Leave them. UM4: Alright. JC: Yea, leave those guys go. Uh, so this guy has been fully cooperative. So, Im going to get some pictures. Then hes got this laptop which I think we can take his old laptop. Weve got a new laptop which we may take. And, then we got this hard drive. Were definitely going to take. Ok? And, uh, [UI]. UM5: [UI] bring that stuff out JC: Yea, Im trying to, but uh, I dont want to break the flow. UM5: Maybe well cut some people loose. JC: Thats totally acceptable. I would say, yea. UM5: [UI] JC: [UI] completely cooperative in there. UM5: [UI] JC: Yea, Im just, uh, I can hear the noise out here, and theres a lot of guys out there. And, he has a roommate. UM5: [UI] JC: And, I was thinking that, uh. MK: [UI] do anything about our neighbors or anything like that?
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MK: [UI] do anything about our neighbors or anything like that? JC: No, no. MK: Theyre welcome, theyre all welcome to come in. JC: Yea. GA: [UI] JC: Yea, I just didnt, uh, you know, want to cause any problems with your roommates. And, then if they wanted [UI]. MK: [UI] JC: Alright. [UI] Im guessing MK: [UI] JC: Sorry about that. GA: So, you were saying then that you gave one set of credentials MK: I gave one set of credentials to Sabu. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: Um, I didnt know what he was going to use them for, but at the time I really wasnt concerned about it. I figured, I didnt even know if theyd work, to be frank. Um, I did have access to a set of credentials that I did know worked. I dont recall giving that to them. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: I may have. I dont really remember. Um, but JC: Well, well refresh your memory on that I suppose cause weve got those logs, and we can show you and you can. MK: Sure. Um. GA: And, at some point actually, you, once you gave them credentials you saw that they were using them effectively, so you knew they worked at that point, right? MK: I did not monitor what they were doing with it. They were telling me that there were certain things, you know, that, that they did eventually get access to the content management system. As far as I know, they didnt
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get access to the content management system. As far as I know, they didnt have access to anything internal. And, by internal, I mean, something that is not forward-facing, something that you would not otherwise be able to access by the Internet. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: Our content management system you could [UI]. Tribunes content management system you could access through the Internet. Um, again, thats one of those things I always thought was a flaw on their end, but regardless. There were actually two content management systems. They were identical. Um, and they both did the same thing. They both fed into the same server. The only difference was that one was internal. One was external. But, they were the exact same thing. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: It was just how you got access JC: Sure. MK: -- to them was different. Um, but the credentials worked across the board. The login pages looked identical. Im sure youve seen all of this. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: So, um, you know, they were, they, they would tell me that they saw certain things, that yea, clicked to me, and they told me that they saw certain things that I didnt even know were in there. Um, it became clear to me after a while that Tribune must have at some point known that this username was out in the wild. They were telling me things that even working at Tribune I had never seen before, but somebody at Tribune had to have gone on their end and unlocked a lot of doors. Um, it was almost as if, you know, and please dont take this out of context because I dont know that this is true, but based on my observations, it was almost like they were given super user access. JC: And, that surprised ya. MK: Well, I had never had it before. [Laughter] So JC: Yea. So, you gave them the account, and they were, and you were surprised how effective they were in terms of amplifying it right? MK: I dont think that anybody who looked at it from the outside wouldnt have been able to figure out how to turn that on. In my opinion, you know, again, you guys probably know more than I do. In my opinion, it came across to me as if somebody at Tribune had turned something on.
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again, you guys probably know more than I do. In my opinion, it came across to me as if somebody at Tribune had turned something on. JC: Ok. MK: They, they may have done it not knowing the circumstances JC: Right. MK: Behind who had access to that account. They may have done it JC: but somehow this account that you gave them became more powerful than you thought it was going to be. MK: Yea. JC: And, thats what youre telling me. MK: Yea. JC: Ok. But, is it that really surprising when youre dealing with these uber hackers that youre dealing with? MK: If were going back to the mindset that I had at the time, it did. JC: Ok. MK: Um, it really did because you know I, I, I felt uneasy about what I was seeing, and in the back of my mind I kind of knew. JC: Kind of an oops moment. MK: No, no Well, heres, no, what Im trying to get at is You know, the feeling that I had when I first got into the room of being uneasy and not being able to sleep the first couple of nights that was prefaced on the fact that there was appeared to be a blatant disregard for any kind of civil-civility or any kind of law. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: It just seemed to be doing things because they can do things. And, but, I, I really didnt have a good grasp and still, to this day, dont on what is possible on their end and what is not. You know, what they had and what they can do and what they cant do. I, you know, just based on my knowledge of Tribune and how the Tribune Companys CMS worked, if youre introduced to a new environment, kind of like I was, you dont inherently know what youre looking at.
JC: Sure.
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JC: Sure. MK: You feel overwhelmed by it, in fact. If its, if you have an abundance of stuff. And JC: But, you talked them through it a little bit, I mean in terms of how to MK: Well, kind of JC: Yea, what you knew. MK: Very limited things that I knew. JC: How to navigate. MK: I, I know how to publish a story. They, they did publish an LA Times st ory. Or, they, let me clarify. Uh, they either published a new story or they edited an existing story. JC: Now, are you referring to that Chippy1337 story? MK: Yes, I think they edited an existing story. JC: How did you feel when you saw that? MK: Um. JC: I mean, you knew there was a correlation, Im, Im sure. How did you feel? MK: I didnt know what had happened until somebody pointed it out. And, by somebody, I mean somebody in the room. JC: InternetFeds, yea. MK: Um, and I really dont remember what my mindset was. It was JC: Did you go look at the story? MK: I did look at the story JC: Ok. MK: --and I saved a screenshot of the story. JC: Alright. MK: And, I dont think I still have access to that. But, I do know its out
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MK: And, I dont think I still have access to that. But, I do know its out there, um. And, I dont know where it is. But, I, I do know it exists somewhere. I have gone back and looked at it and seen it. Uh, its still cached on a Google server Im sure. JC: So, you dont really remember how you thought about it, I guess Im trying to get a sense of, uh MK: How I found it was somebody in the chat room linked to it. JC: Linked to it. And, then, but you know, when, but ultimately you were responsible for that because thats what Im trying to understand as far as like, Oo, I wish I hadnt done that, or was there a MK: I didnt JC: Not that serious feeling? Or, what were you feeling? MK: I didnt go into the server and change anything. JC: So, you felt removed from that? MK: To be completely honest, I felt like I incited it. JC: Ok. MK: But, as far as what they did in the server, or when they had access to the CMS, you know, I dont recall ever suggesting that they do certain things. JC: How do you feel about that now? MK: Um. JC: Looking back. MK: I feel like now it had minimal impact. JC: Ok. MK: And, that was something that wasnt really addressed by Tribune. Um, it, it had very low impact. JC: Alright. MK: And, to be honest, I was surprised because this is a group that has always had high impact. But, what apparently happened was there was one user in the room. I dont remember what their username was. Its probably
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user in the room. I dont remember what their username was. Its probably in the logs, and when I see it, Ill, Ill remember it. There was one person in the room who took it upon themselves to sort of be a little bit of individual shenanigans. And, um, it really upset Sabu because Sabu said he had big plans for those accounts, um, and by those accounts, what I mean is they eventually, I fully believe, based on the conversations that weve had within in the room that I wasnt always a part of, but did observe, I believe they had access to other accounts. JC: On the CMS? MK: I dont know how they had access to them. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: I really dont know what that process is like. Um, I may have at the time, but I dont remember what it was like. I, I genuinely dont remember how to do it now. Um, but, and I wouldnt see why they wouldnt. JC: Sure. MK: They had a month to sort of JC: Work on it. MK: You know, poke around there. I dont think it was a very high priority for them. Um, frankly, I think that they, I dont believe Sabu when said they had big plans for the site. Frankly, I think that they looked at it and they thought this is really not worth our time. And, the reason why they let me sort of stay in the room for as long as they did is because they didnt think that me being involved was going to, uh, let me rephrase that. They didnt think of me observing them was going to, uh, do any kind of, have any kind of significant impact on what they were doing. If anything, I was kind of, if you think of it in terms of a schoolyard group kind of thing, I was the kid who didnt really know anything, and they could kind of throw back to it as like, you know JC: Sure. MK: This kid didnt know anything but we kind of like being around him. Um, and that was almost deliberate after a while, you know, uh, I, I did play to that to find out, you know, sort of how they do certain things. And, I can already tell you, you know far more about how they do certain things than I did. I mean that there were things they were trying to explain to me which just frankly didnt make sense.
JC: Mmm hmm.
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JC: Mmm hmm. MK: I dont have a computer background as far as I publish content to the computer to the Internet, you know. I dont really know how my online banking works JC: Right. MK: -- for example, you know [Laughter]. Like, its just, I dont understand the, the nuts and bolts of how things get from JC: Besides giving them the credentials to the CMS, um, did you do anything else to the system? Maybe help them do something that would be considered illegal? MK: As far as I remember, I didnt. JC: Ok. MK: Did you have something in mind? JC: Well, I dont want to prompt ya. Yea, so. MK: Please, if, you know, I, I want to be completely honest, too. JC: I know. I MK: So, you know, what I dont JC: And, its like I said before, Im com Im being honest with you. Theres two issues I want to cover. One is this issue with giving em the credentials to the CMS. And, youve been candid about that. Youve admitted your role in that, and youve been forthcoming. So, thats all good. The other issue I wanted to talk about was, you know, the, kind of the email stuff that went on with Fox afterwards. Now, Im not sure as far as the legalities of that, but I mean, it did cause some heartache with them, and MK: The emails was, was to be antagonistic, you know. It was to be it was, it was basically to show their viewers that this is a company that, you know, I dont know what that was about just now. But, um, I did see a I did see it, Im very observant. Um JC: What was that? MK: The head nod between the two of you. I dont know what that was about. JC: Oh, Im, Im just looking over to see if Gabe [UI}. [Laughter]
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JC: Oh, Im, Im just looking over to see if Gabe [UI}. [Laughter] MK: Oh, no. Oh, thats fine. Um, forgive me then. JC: Oh no. You, youre reading things in there that arent there. But, its ok. MK: Im reading into a lot of things right now. This is, because Im now going to have to you know JC: Process all of it. MK: Right, you know, uh, and figure out where things go from here. Um, as far as, the emails it was, I dont think that. It was more or less hooliganism. JC: Hooliganism. But, at the same time, you know, I was kind of struck by that, and I, I, and that makes sense. Uh, so we had the emails you took. Uh, you did actually contact some folks, you know, and, and screwed things up there for em. I mean, what was, its just hooliganism? Were you trying to who, who were you angry at? Was it Brandon Mercer? Was it the company, in general? Cause MK: It was, it was JC: -- because the employees were somewhat terrified, as well, as you would understand. Or, did you not, were you unaware of this? MK: There was probably a lot of things that I wasnt aware of that, frankly, I dont care to know. JC: Ok. I got to tell ya, I mean a guy like Joseph Huerta. I mean did you know him? MK: I did. JC: What, what were you thinking? Did you want to hurt him? MK: Um. JC: Were you angry with him? MK: There were things that happened during the course of my employment there, and even afterwards, that you know, he was sort of responsible for. JC: Uh huh.
MK: And, I genuinely believe that there was an email that came back to me
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MK: And, I genuinely believe that there was an email that came back to me about one of my half brothers [UI] found me on the Internet that frankly I felt he was responsible for. JC: Ok. MK: And, still do. JC: Alright. So MK: To the extent of that my observation certain [UI] he was using [UI]. Should say certain [UI} he was using. JC: Right. MK: Um, [UI] fit. JC: And, you went through proxy servers for all of that. MK: Correct. JC: Now, you said you werent a hacker, per se, but you did understand how to get a proxy server and how to use it. MK: I dont understand what proxy server is, like, I,I dont understand the intricate details of a JC: But, so when you went to Yahoo! For example MK: [UI] Let me say this. Its not, I, I dont even know if what I was using was a proxy server. What I was using was a virtual private connection JC: Ok. MK: Virtual private network. JC: And, how did you set that up? MK: I paid a company. They gave me software and had access. JC: What company did you pay? MK: Its called Overplay. JC: Overplay. MK: Yes.
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MK: Yes. JC: And, how did you learn about Overplay? MK: I Googled, um, how to watch British television from the United States? And, Google, uh, excuse me, Overplay is an, is a service that bills itself an expatriate service where you can if you was in one country, you can watch live television or on-demand television from another country. Um, it dawned on me, um, and forgive me, I dont remember when I signed up for this service, initially. JC: Alright. MK: It dawned on me, though, that the service gave me a different IP address. JC: And, did you check these IP addresses to see where they were coming from? MK: I dont remember if I did, but I, but they were foreign to me. JC: Ok. MK: Um, what I can tell you is that, um, yes, I did, I did check them. JC: Ok. MK: In all [UI]. Forgive me for the brain lapse. I ran them through like a who-is-my-IP-service JC: Uh huh. MK: -- to find out if they were coming from the country they said they were coming from. JC: Right. MK: And, what, and how, you know, how they were registered and things like that. And, this was before my involvement, my observation with Anonymous. This was, I think I was still working at Fox when I signed up for this service. JC: Ok. MK: And, it was [clears throat]. I was blown away by the fact that you could do this. I had never known this existed, and frankly, had I known this existed, I would signed up for it a long time ago.
JC: [Laughter]
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JC: [Laughter] MK: You know, for a while, I, I wasnt a customer of theirs after a while. JC: Right. MK: And, I recently signed up again when the Olympics happened. Um, because we needed access to, you know, goo video. And, NBC is [UI]. Um, [clears throat]. Its totally irrelevant[UI], you asked me. JC: I, Im getting at you, uh, when youre sending these emails, you knew you were anonymous and not trackable by Fox News. MK: I didnt know if I was not trackable. It never occurred to me to whether or not [clears throat] I was completely, you know, un-trackable. But, I, I was at least aware that there was an extra layer between me and anybody else. JC: Yea. And, at the time, your, its just harassment. What did you hope to accomplish by doing it? MK: It wasnt even really harassment. My well JC: Hooliganism or just defacement or what was MK: Looking back on it now, thats what I would classify it as. At the time, though, that wasnt my intent. What my intent was, is, as an angry former employee was to say to their viewers, Look, this is whats going on. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: And, I remember one of the emails that I sent was about the, its like an iPad contest, or some kind of contest that was going on that was my idea, by the way, which Im glad they did. Um, but there was a contest that was going on, and the contests there are not ethically, um, and maybe not even legally, um, whats the word? Played, I guess. JC: Sure. MK: I mean, for lack of a better word, executed, and [UI]. The-there are certain practices that they do that Im not sure if theyre illegal or not, but was a concern to me when I worked there. And, I aired those concerns. And, I said, Listen, if somebody, you know, gets this out there, this could be really bad. One of them was, you know, we did a contest called
the Cash Grab. We were one of four TV stations to do this Cash Grab
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the Cash Grab. We were one of four TV stations to do this Cash Grab contest where we had like $100,000 and a $1,000,000, in singles and other denominations that we gave a contestant the ability [UI]. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: And, they got to keep whatever was left. Turns out, a local politician was tapped to do that. He won. Um. [Laughter] JC: [Laughter] What a surprise! MK: [UI] mean JC: Yea, I can [UI]. MK: He won fairly, you know. There was no JC: No, I, I MK: There was no deception going on there, but what concerned me was that it became evident to me that management and other employees werent aware of the fact that we were on a delay on other broadcast services. And, the reason why I bring that up is because one of the ways that you entered into this contest was a number flashed on the screen at a certain time. JC: Uh huh. MK: And, you call that number, and if you were number x, you know, you were thrown into this lottery system. And, one person was picked from the lottery system and thats who got the opportunity to partake in the contest. None of us thought this contest was a good idea. The employees were, you know, that participated in it, um, but one of the concerns that I mentioned was that were on a delay on certain services. You know, when we air the number on Comcast, on our in-house cable system, uh, or on Comcast, um, its not going out at the same time as people that are on Dish Network or DIRECTV. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: And, theyre getting it 10, 12, l 15 seconds later. And, theyre not getting the opportunity to participate, and its simply because the producers want to get it over with JC: Yea. MK: -- as soon as possible. And, had that gotten out you know, it would have caused a shit storm.
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JC: Yea. MK: And, rightly so. I mean that was an extremely insensitive and uncaring thing to do to viewers. I bring that up because [UI]. JC: Yea. Now, I see your point. Yea. MK: That was one of the catalysts behind what was going on. Um, with the emails is that, you know, to sort of say, Look, theres all these gimmicky things that the station is doing to get you to tune in, and you guys are kind of suckering yourself into it because youre taking it in, but youre not being given a fair opportunity to JC: So, its, its kind of a, in some sense it sounds to me like you were, you were upset and angry. And, in some sense, its a righteous anger about some of their actions. Um. MK: So, I sent emails, you know I was able to obtain emails from a separate content management system that, again, I still had access to. Um, I dont ever recall giving that to anybody involved with the Anonymous group. JC: I think you offered to sell it to them, as I recall, in one of your, uh, things. Anybody, I think, you told them that you had a list through, anybody want to buy a list of Fox News? MK: Yea, my, my, my honest intention was not to sell it to them. It was to provoke reaction. JC: Provoke reaction. MK: Yea. Um, so, right away, that would not have happened. JC: So, you never gave them the email list other than, and the only way you used it was MK: To be completely honest with you, I dont remember if I ever did give them the email list. JC: Ok. MK: I really dont remember. JC: Alright. MK: I dont, I have no reason to believe they ever used it for anything, though. JC: Ok.
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JC: Ok. MK: Um, but, I certainly did have a list. I dont remember, I mean, I really dont recall if I have that list now. JC: At, at one point Brandon Mercer, as I understand it, called you up and confronted you with, uh, these emails, and you said, No, I have nothing to do with it. Were you still angry with them? What, what was going on then? MK: I was, um, I was angry with them for a long time. JC: How do you feel now? Time heals all wounds? MK: Um. [Pause]. There are days when I look back on it, and I think, you know, I dont think angry is the right word to use because I wasnt really angry. I would have been angry if I hadnt prepared for it and didnt know it was coming and didnt sort of see the warning signs. I was hurt by what happened. And, thats a word that, you know, in talking with other people about what had happened with my involvement with Tribune when I was being interviewed by ABC and when I was being interviewed by Reuters, you know, the issue did come up, why did you leave? You know, why were let go? And, you know, how do you feel about it? And, the word that Ive always used, and I think is most appropriate, was that I felt hurt. JC: Do you have any regrets, or rem-um, were you sorry now in retrospect about the whole, you know, doing this kind of hooliganism, and the MK: It shouldnt have happened. So, yes. JC: Um MK: There is some JC: Because it, it seems like its MK: Theres some incredible JC: Theres little payoff for it. It just seems so pointless. MK: Theres, theres, theres so many incredibly good people that work there. JC: Yea. MK: That still work there. Brandon is one those, I consider Brandon to be somebody that, you know, he gave me my first opportunity to work in television, you know, to, to work in news. I wouldnt be here, you know.
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JC: I read some of those emails. He was, that guy was pretty upset. I mean he didnt know which way was up with those emails. MK: Brandon? JC: Brandon. [Pause] JC: If you were given a chance, would you apologize to Brandon about what you did? MK: Yea. JC: Ok. MK; And, it would be sincere. JC: I believe it. MK: The, the hesitation was on two levels. You know, to do anything, and one was would I be indicting myself. Seems irrelevant at this point. And, the second is just embarrassment. Of, of, you know, trying to be the, of wanting, I should say, wanting to be the bigger person and not having been. JC: Well, heres what I will tell you now and answer to that. First of all, you know, with regard to, uh, the past or the facts, you cant change what you did. MK: Right. JC: And, you cant change the facts. MK: I agree, yea. JC: And, so going forward from where you are sitting right here today MK: This is one of the reasons why Im talking to you as opposed to saying, you know, I want a lawyer, or I want to talk to, you know, counsel at Tribune, or, again Im sorry, Reuters or anything like that is because, you know, I did it. JC: I know. And, but more than that the thing, and this brings me to my second point, is its one thing to know you did it, and theres another thing to be, uh, to have sufficient character and sufficient humanity really to just face the truth and do the right thing for the people that were affected by what you did in the past minor, major, in whatever way. But, its, its a character issue, and I, and what youre showing me now is
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But, its, its a character issue, and I, and what youre showing me now is that you have that character. And, I, I admire that, I think thats, uh, I think thats a good thing, so. MK: There are consequences for everything people do, and for what I do, for what other people have done, you know JC: Mmm hmm. MK: -- there are, there were consequences for what happened at Fox. And, my concern was, you know, in being hurt was that there were not ever going to be any consequences. JC: Yea. MK: And, now, there were. JC: Yea. MK: And, by now Im think-Im going to back to my state of mind JC: Mmm hmm. MK: -- in December. Now, there were. And, um, it didnt change anything. JC: Yea. MK: In terms of, you know, it didnt make me feel better. JC: I know. Funny how that works, isnt it? Mk: Of course beforehand I would have had no idea if, if it did or not. JC: Yea. MK: But, it didnt make me feel any better, you know, it, it frankly, one of the reasons why I asked Brandon out to coffee was because I didnt, like I said, initially, I didnt want there to be any animosity. I just wanted there to be, you know, I just wanted us to be able to work together again. JC: Yea. MK: Whether or not we have friendship or a working business relationship, I just wanted us to be able to work together again. And, for some of the people on the staff, we have been working together. You know, Ive coordinated with their web producer, the person that now has my job, [UI] two days ago. JC: Well, I havent phoned Brandon in a while, but I did get to know him
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JC: Well, I havent phoned Brandon in a while, but I did get to know him briefly. I talked with him a few times, and he, uh, strikes me as a, uh, the kind of guy that is not going to hold that against you in a significant way if, if you were to talk to him and, and essentially apologize. MK: Brandon is, as a person, he is one of the most generous people youll, youll meet. Hes one of the nicest people youll meet. Hes one of the smartest people, frankly. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: You know, as a manager, hes lousy. You know, thats JC: Not surprising how that combination MK: And, its not because he was my boss, you know, and everybody has sort of animosity towards their boss, but, and, and, you know, America workplace America. I love the boss that I work with now. JC: Yea. MK: Um, but, as a manager, he just wasnt effective. A lot of people, a lot of good people were being let go that didnt need to be let go because of a direction that doesnt work. And, still to a certain extent doesnt work. JC: Yea. MK: You know, I mean I work in media. We look at each other and, and judge. We shouldnt, but we do. JC: Sure. MK: And, there are still a lot of people that, you know, there are people, frankly, that I went to a party in December, that December and the hacking, was hacking, it wasnt hacking. The hacking was, was brought up at this party, and they were asking me, Who is Fox Mulder? You know, Whoare you Fox Mulder? and of course I was denying it. And, the sentiment there was, you know, you say they were terrified. Im surprised to hear that because when I was at this party, the reaction that I was getting was its about time. You know, somebody did something. JC: Yea. MK: And JC: Ill, uh, Ill characterize it this way. When I was called in after MK: I believe that Brandon was terrified. [Laughter]
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MK: I believe that Brandon was terrified. [Laughter] JC: Ah, I dont know how terrified Brandon was. I talked to some of the girls there. They were genuinely upset, and I think their fear was MK: They were upset because JC: -- they didnt know who was behind this. And, there have been some other issues at the office because employee morale may not have been so great. They didnt know what was going on, and people have a fear of the unknown. MK: I didnt JC: And, there was greatly sense of the unknown. MK: I didnt help contribute to the fact that the employment or the morale was not the best. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: Because I walked out of sales meetings, and I threw fits in the newsroom, most of which Brandon were involved in. Um, as a manager, I think, you know, looking, not me as a manager, but looking at Brandon as a manager, there were certain things that, you know, were just were aired out in the public that I think he wanted, he felt were positive because he wanted to build a democratic work environment. But, in reality, shouldnt have happened. JC: Right. MK: Because you just cant manage people that way. JC: I understand. MK: You cant publically manage people that way. The argument that he and I had that ultimately left, you know, I decided that I wanted to leave after we had that argument on Thursday. I was officially terminated on Monday. On my paperwork it said I was laid off, which I think that they did that so that I could collect the unemployment which is [Laughter] JC: Or, maybe not to hurt you in your future endeavors. MK: The, the JC: Its hard to say. MK: The, the people that ABC spoke with when I was being interviewed there
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MK: The, the people that ABC spoke with when I was being interviewed there told who would eventually become my manager that I was fired. JC: Hmm. MK: And, I had to un-dig that hole, and say, Actually, heres what happened. And, I appreciate that they gave me that opportunity, but JC: Hmm. MK: The I genuinely believe some people were upset. I dont think that they were, you know, you spoke with them. So, you know. JC: Yea, I speak to everybody. MK: Im, Im just coming across this as based on my observation and, and how I used to work with them, and I still keep in touch with them. They never came to me and, and, you know, I, I think I know some of the people that you spoke with. JC: Well, I mean Im thinking of, uh, and I cant put names to faces, but Im thinking things of probably like more like secretaries. People that didnt, that had only been on the periphery, you know, of, uh, what was going on and knew that this sort of stuff was happening, knew that there was an issue, felt this un-described kind of threat to the organization and didnt know where it was coming from. MK: There were some people that I think genuinely, you know, they love the brand, they love the company, you can do whatever you want to them and they are just happy to have a job. JC: Yea. MK: You know, and, I understand that. I completely understand that. And, if theres any sort of fear of, of being terrified its because, you know, theyre, theyre more afraid of, of the fact JC: The unknown. MK: [UI] shake up than they are of what was happening. And, Im just speaking based on, please dont let me characterize anybody, but Im just speaking completely JC: How you perce MK: as a former employer there JC: I understand.
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JC: I understand. MK: --and understanding how things worked there. JC: Ok. MK: Thats, I dont think this is, thats relevant to what were talking about but, um. So, the reason, the emails, you know, I had access to emails, to email, to be more specific, I had access to email addresses of people who may or may not have entered this contest. And, it was based on credentials that I was given and never were taken away from me. JC: Ok. GA: Did the Cash Grab contest [UI] you spoke about before? MK: No, this contest was [UI] you know in coming up with this contest I believe was the iPad people [UI]. JC: Yea, yea the IPad, the Christmas, uh MK: -- it happened in December. Again, it was my idea. JC: Yea. MK: [UI] JC: Uh, are you still in contact with anybody, uh, in, um, Anonymous hacking realm? MK: I reached out to Jack Davies, uh, on the advice of Parmy to try and get him to do a story with, um, my boss who is, uh, a hes, hes a social media editor at Reuters and he also does technology assignments. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: And, I wanted to reach out to him to try to, um, uh, do a story. You know, he had written up a piece in the Guardian JC: Yea. MK: -- that Im sure youve read. Uh, you know, saying, Life is great without the Internet. Uh, which I would really consider for two weeks. Its not that bad. [Laughter] You get used to it. Um, I wanted to sort of talk to him and have my boss talk with him and try and get perspective, you know, like have a cell phone number that Parmy gave me that I texted and I said, you know, my name is Matthew, I work for Reuters. Uh, I dont know, you know, frankly, based on my text that I sent him whether or not he would
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you know, frankly, based on my text that I sent him whether or not he would have known who I was. JC: Yea. MK: Uh, but I can tell you that I didnt hear anything from him, and I emailed Parmy, and I said, You know I didnt hear anything from Jack. Whats going on? And, he, she said, Well, he didnt get your text. And, I figured, well, its an international number maybe thats why. Um, but, uh, as far as keeping in touch with anybody with Anonymous JC: Yea. MK: Uh, not since, my last involvement with, I want to be very clear when I say involvement, its more or less observant. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: I didnt hack into anything, committed no criminal offense, you know, as far as I am aware of. Um, I think it was March. May have been January of 2011 was the last time that I was given access to the InternetFeds room. From that point on, I really didnt go into the chat room, you know. I would go in every now and then to just kind of see what was going on. JC: When, when was this? March of this year? MK: I believe it was no. Uh, January of 2011 JC: Ok. MK: -- was the last time I was given access to the room. JC: Alright. MK: I was in there for about a month. Uh, they shut the room down because things were being leaked out. By me. You guys [UI] JC: Yea. MK: [UI] JC: Oh yea. MK: Um, and by that point, the damage that I had done in giving them those credentials was already JC: Right. MK: Done.
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MK: Done. JC: And, just to clarify, when you say no criminal intent, I mean, I, I hope Ive been clear, but, uh, it says at the end of the warrant, it says, uh, it is, uh, with regard to, you know, giving passwords, thats actually technically, technically illegal. I mean its, uh MK: I didnt know that at the time. [Laughter]. JC: And MK: And, Ive since found out, um, you know, Ive since done more background research on this. JC: Ok. MK: And, um, I dont want to incriminate myself upon, you know, by saying, I did or did not. JC: Well, youre not making it worse than it already is or, or less. I mean it is what it is. MK: I just want to be honest with you and tell you what happened. JC: I understand. MK: You know, as far as any kind of charges or indictment or admission or I think that will come later in some of the guilt or not. Um, I just want to tell you what happened. JC: I understand, and I appreciate that. MK: And, [UI]. JC: Yea, I mean going with, well, well go back I mean, but I do want to be clear. I dont want to misinform you because, uh MK: I understand what you guys have to do. JC: You know, I mean theres particularly giving passwords, theres the trafficking passwords. Even taking the email list from Fox News after they terminated you. You know, thats technically a computer intrusion, and youre not supposed to do that, and you know, you knew you werent supposed to do it. MK: No, what I, I didnt, I didnt know that I wasnt supposed to do it. What I would say is that my mindset was I had access to things that they should have taken away.
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should have taken away. JC: I understand. MK: But, they didnt. So in my mind JC: I understand. Yea, its not, uh, well, I mean I, I MK: I understand the perception. JC: Yea. MK: Dont get me wrong. JC: No, I MK: I understand the perception, dont get me wrong. I understand the perception, and I [UI]. JC: And, I see where youre coming from. MK: [UI] legalities. But, understand that at the time, that was my mindset. JC: Yea. MK: Having looked at JC: Possibility of criminal charges were not really real to you at that time that it could potentially happen when you were involved in that. MK: Um, it didnt become apparent to me until March 6th. JC: Which MK: When I read the complaint. JC: On Sabu? MK: On Sabu and others. Yea. JC: And, thats why you sent me a little text. Were you unnerved by that? MK: No, I sent you, uh, I sent you an email. JC: Oh, it was an email, yea. MK: Reuters wanted me to do a story on my involvement with, uh, my observance
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JC: Right. MK: --with the InternetFeds because that was a story that really hadnt come out. And, Adrian Chen and I had, had traded, um, the Gawker writer, had traded emails, um, back and forth. I had given him access to some of the screen grabs. Um, as I did with Parmy and, and a few others. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: Some of which I dont remember to be honest with you. Um, and, uh, in reaching out to you it was for a story. JC: Ok. I understand. MK: It was because I was doing a story and as a journalist you have to reach out to all of the resources you have available, and, um, I, dont get me wrong, I understand why you werent able to respond. It doesnt surprise me, frankly. Um, to answer your question about my, you know, going to the chat rooms and being observant with Anonymous. January 2011 was, as far as this is concerned, the last time that I went into any chat room or had access to any chat room I was able to observe InternetFeds. JC: Ok. MK: When I was working at ABC, uh, we had Op BART happen in San Francisco. JC: Ok, yea, yea. MK: And, I went onto the chat room using a Disney computer and said is there anybody that would like to talk us about this. JC: Ok, but as a journalist? MK: As a journalist. And, one person, and unfortunately, I, you know, I, Ill be very honest with you, I dont know it was. If I, as far as screen names or anything like that, you know, if you were to show it to me, I wouldnt be able to say JC: Yea. MK: --you know, who it was. I wouldnt be able to confirm or deny one way or another. JC: Yea. MK: But, to be completely honest with you, as it stands right now, I dont remember the persons screen name. I dont remember the phone number that,
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remember the persons screen name. I dont remember the phone number that, you know, popped up on my caller ID when they called in. I, I genuinely dont remember any of that. JC: Ok. MK: Um, that being said JC: Alright. MK: -- if you were to present me with like a chat log and said, What happened? JC: Well MK: I wouldnt be able to confirm or deny one way or another. JC: Would you be willing at a later time if we did, and you know, a better venue, sit down and go over some of the chat logs? Uh, to, and explain who was who that youre recollection and go over some of the names. And, um MK: I can tell you when I found out who Sabu was it did not surprise me because he had been very candid with me. JC: Yea. MK: In one of our conversations he said, you know, I live in New York. I am a, he told he was a foster father of two boys, turns out that was inaccurate. JC: If it came to a trial or a hearing would you be willing to testify? MK: On this? Or, on JC: On anything. I mean MK: Uh, can I say yes now? JC: Yea, you can say whatever you want. I mean, its, uh, these are your own words. MK: I, I mean, I essentially I dont, I, I dont have full recollection of JC: Yea. MK: I can tell you that in terms of Op BART, you know, there was at least one person that reached out and said
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one person that reached out and said JC: Ok. MK: -- uh, I am willing to comment. We kept him anonymous as journalists for various reasons. At the time, it seemed [UI]. JC: I understand. I guess, one other thing is that, you know, were, were sitting here talking, um, at some point in time there is, you know, theres a prosecutor back in Sacramento were going to have to share with him. And, what we are going to share with him is, is how forthright you were, how candid you were, how truthful you were, and that is going to be very helpful. MK: As far as what happened with Fox is concerned. I did it. My- There were things that I did. I cant deny it. Im not going to now. I dont think I ever really did with you. Um. JC: I think whats interesting me to is, the, now that Im thinking, uh. Well, let me just ask you this, would you be, uh, willing to put in writing, uh, what you did for review that process specifically admitting to the, um, taking the emails? Uh, and you can explain why, and then also turning over the passwords. MK: As far as the going, you know being publicly JC: It wouldnt be, it wouldnt be a public record. This would be for the prosecutor. And, including a statement of remorse. MK: Yea, it, and, and this would be, you know, this would not be part of any kind of court file, or JC: Well, I cant promise anything. Well, I mean everything is MK: By public, what I mean is, you know JC: You want this to be a private and not be released to the public. MK: I, I would ideally like this not to be released to the public and, but I understand that, you know, the Freedom of Information Act and theres all these different things that JC: Well, there are other things to protect it as well. What we can say is, uh, we wont release it, and, and there are provisions that a judge could prevent its release. Uh, a judge can do whatever he wants, but we cant make any promises. MK: But, I also understand that in working, you know, in, in, what, what
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MK: But, I also understand that in working, you know, in, in, what, what you guys initially, I think, overall are looking for is information and evidence. JC: Thats pretty much it. MK: Um, I dont think there is, as far as the hacking collective, I dont think theres really, theres, youre not going to get much from me, you know. And, its not because JC: You know. MK: I dont want to offer it. Its because I cant, you know. And, by I cant, I mean I dont physically have the ability. JC: The, the thing that you dont appreciate is you cant, uh, from where were sitting, get the big picture, and how all of the pieces come together. MK: No. I completely understand that anything at this point helps. JC: Yea. MK: Believe me. I, Im not ignorant of the fact that any little piece of the puzzle is going to help put together the bigger picture. And, again, when you contacted me in April, when I was moving, my intention was not to hide anything that had happened. I had gotten a new job. JC: I understand. MK: All of it. Things for me have been working fine, you know. Even given this, things for me will still be fine. Um, at some point, you know, what happened today is not, did not come as a surprise to me. JC: I, Im sure. MK: You know. JC: Why, why dont we do this, why dont you start, uh MK: But, what Im saying is [UI]. My concern is this eventually getting out there under my name, um, and I know that there are ways that, you know, like calling me a cooperating witness or, or something like that. Theres, whatever in your ability to minimalize JC: To the, and I, I MK: [UI] the impact.
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MK: [UI] the impact. JC: My problem is I, and Im, I can, I will minimalize the impact. I will do everything in my power. My problem is that, uh, I cant, and Ill be honest with you, I cant foresee any reason why it needs to go to the public. Having said that, I dont control events in the court. So MK: Well, part of the issue is that this offense was c-c-committed against a news organization. JC: Yea. MK: And, theyre going to do JC: I dont see why they would need to see it, and there are things that can be done. I will, I will ask that it be redacted and not made available to the victim. I cant promise it. MK: Its ultimately up to the judge, I understand. JC: Its ultimately up to the judge. In, in my, in my past experience, ok MK: Mmm hmm. JC: Things like this dont need to be seen. Unless, it actually goes to a trial and theres some, you know, you know, this statement is used needed to make, you know, and you decide Im, Im go to a trial and we have to do something like that. Barring that, I dont see how it would come up in public, or be made available to the public. It would be a part of the FBI records. It would be shown to the prosecutor. Uh, it would be shown obviously to you because you did it. But, beyond that, Im not aware of how that would be released. MK: Well, heres the thing JC: Having said all of that, I dont want to make any promises. MK: Like when you are, right now this is an accusation, you know. Um, I am not being charged JC: No charges have been filed. MK: I have not been charged with anything. JC: Have not been charged. MK: Ive not been convicted of anything. Um.
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JC: And, it wouldnt be part of, if, if, if and when that you were charged, it wouldnt be, uh, part of that. And, all of that is going to be done MK: What do you mean it wouldnt be a part of that? JC: Well, I mean, it, it wouldnt be incorporated like this as an affidavit. It, it goes you, you know, you know, [UI]. MK: [UI]. In terms of the writing, Ill write whatever you want me to write. [Laughter] Thats fine. I dont want to give you a blank check, you know. So say, and, and make promises at least on my end that you know JC: Im just giving you an opportunity to, to show remorse, to explain to the prosecutor and show that Im fully cooperative. MK: As far as this is concerned, whatever you need from me, you can have. JC: Alright. Well, lets go ahead and, and MK: If you want me to, you know. If youre able to get information that leads you to an arrest of another individual. As a journalist, the consequences that happened to the people that I write about, and as far as Im concerned, this to me, is not just a life experience, but its now become part of a story that JC: Ok. MK: Im involved in because I injected myself JC: Yea. MK: --into it as of March of last year. Um, my name is out there. People know that I observed this room. There, there are parts of my observations that have been published. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: Im sure youve read them. JC: Mmm hmm. MK: Um, there are parts of them that made it into the book, and youve read it. [Laughter]. Or, youre getting through it. I have, actually, not read the entire book myself. Um. JC: Well, your concern is uh MK: Two things. Two things. I would rather [UI].
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MK: Two things. Two things. I would rather [UI]. JC: Ok. MK: [UI] to be completely honest with you. Youre going to talk to whoever you want to talk to thats involved in my life anyway. But, as, I can honestly tell you that the person you want to talk with about this is me. JC: And, its not our intent to go, for example, it sounds like your concern is your career and Reuters and these types of things. Is, is that what your concern is? MK: Part of, part of it is my family. JC: Ok. MK: So. JC: We dont need to talk to your family. MK: I can tell you that JC: We dont need to talk to Reuters. MK: Ok. JC: And, youve been totally candid with us, and youre cooperating. I couldnt expect anything more from you, Matt. MK: Ive always wanted to cooperate on this story. JC: I understand. MK: You know, to be completely honest, had somebody called me where I am today, you would have no way of knowing this, but if somebody called me and said, you know, were in New York or were in New Jersey, wed like to meet and talk with, you know, with you about what happened, [UI], away from work [Laughter] JC: Yea. MK: Meet at a Starbucks somewhere or, or JC: Well, thats why were here today. I mean were not, were not at your work. MK: And, Id love to continue to keep in contact with you. If you have a card, or, or
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card, or, or JC: And, we, we have a card. Were going to leave our cards. And, we will certainly be in contact afterwards saying weve got to go back to, uh, you know California, but uh, well be in touch with ya. And, you know, youll be a dial a MK: [UI] Jersey JC: Yea, I could [UI] a nice place in Manhattan. MK: I have to tell you, I love living here. I have JC: Well, this is the center of the world. MK: I have great roommates who will probably leave soon. JC: Well, hopefully that doesnt, and you know, and, and in retrospect, uh, and, um, Im going to leave you to write this thing here in a second because I want to keep these guys out there and not mess up their lives too much, but you know, theyre going to look at this as a bit of an adventure as well. MK: I can tell you I want to write whatever you want me to write in your presence. JC: Ok. MK: Um. I dont know that right now Im in the state of mind where I can, and its not because I dont want to, its because I want be cognizant of any event. JC: Ok. MK: That you need me to recollect, and I just dont know that JC: Alright. MK: As of right now JC: Youre going to have the presence in mind to remember all of the details. MK: I just, I just dont, and I, I JC: Well
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MK: [UI] I ultimately want to make sure that whatever I give you is going to be helpful. JC: And, and I, I can appreciate that. MK: And I dont, I dont want to leave any detail out. JC: Well, let me, theres, theres MK: I want to have a chance to look at this. JC: Yea, I appreciate that. MK: And, refresh my memory to these. JC: Theres three issues that Id like to give to the prosecutor. MK: Mmm hmm. JC: Ok. First of all, uh, you know, Im fully cooperative. MK: And, I understand that time is of the essence, too. JC: Nah, kind of the essence. I mean, Id like to do it today. [Laughter] But, uh MK: We can do it today. JC: But, uh MK: Im just saying, in my pajamas, right now JC: Yea. MK: I dont know that I can. JC: So, there-theres a couple issues Id like to get. One is, Im, Im cooperative. Two is, yea, I worked at Fox News, and I took the emails. Three is I gave the passwords to some guys on Anonymous. And, four is Im sorry, and I regret my actions. MK: I would like to give you whatever information is going to be helpful. [UI] JC: But, I dont want, yea, I dont want to put words in your mouth, or MK: No, I understand. JC: But, based on our conversation, I think thats pretty much what we
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JC: But, based on our conversation, I think thats pretty much what we talked about. MK: Yea. JC: And, it can be as simple as those four lines. But, I want it to be your words. And, uh MK: And, if thats what youre looking for, you know, we can put it on paper now. But, if you want something more detailed. JC: It doesnt have to be detailed. What Im looking for is MK: And, the conversation that we had today, as long as it doesnt interfere with, you know, my work, like I wouldnt be able to leave work at 2 p.m. JC: Yea. MK: to say JC: Yea, what well MK: Unless there was, in certain circumstances there was a subpoena that I had to appear in court because, you know, youve caught a guy, and I might know something about it, and you want to JC: Were not going to call you at work Matt. What we gotta do is we got to look at the computers. MK: What, what Im trying [UI]. JC: [UI] MK: There are certain, certain, you know, Im going to have to go work today and say, Something happened. You know. I, I, this is, our interaction is, its not going to be in a news story unless somebody leaks it to like Gawker or Fox. JC: Right. MK: Or, anything like that. Um, I mean anything can happen like, like you said. I, I to tell you where Im coming from Im going to have to go into work today and tell my boss this happened. JC: Mmm hmm.
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MK: It doesnt have to be as detailed, and it wont be because I dont want to compromise anything that you guys are working on. JC: Right. MK: Im taking a step back as a journalist and saying this would, this would be a story. Im giving you my word that as far as my abilities will allow, I will do what I can to ensure that this isnt one. JC: Ok. And, what we MK: But, I do have to go to my boss. JC: I understand. What you ask of us? What do you want us to do? How can we help you? MK: The first thing that I would like is a way to communicate with either of you. JC: Ok, alright, and were going to leave our cards and our email address. MK: Or, anybody, that, you know, I can get in touch with. JC: Ok. And, thats going to be us. MK: I know how to get in touch with you, cause I have your email but I dont know that I have your phone number. Um. JC: Alright. Were going to give you our cards. MK: And, I think I still have your voicemail, too. JC: And, Ill answer my phone. MK: Um. I dont send out my phone number when I felt kind of [UI]. JC: Ok. MK: Um. I also dont answer my phone. JC: Ok. MK: Its not, I dont answer my phone to you. Its, I dont answer my phone at all. Um, the easiest way to reach me is by email. JC: Ok. MK: [UI] e-mail leave records. Um, and I would prefer to communicate
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MK: [UI] e-mail leave records. Um, and I would prefer to communicate JC: Face-to-face like we are now. MK: Or, by via phone or via Skype or by a [UI]. But, um JC: I understand. MK: Im not really concerned about that. As far as copping to what I did, Im willing to do that. JC: Ok. MK: As far as writing something and saying, you know, youre looking for four lines. I remember about two of those right now and you just said it about five minutes ago. JC: I know. MK: Im willing to do that as well. JC: Alright. MK: Um, I would ask that as far as youre able to that this not become a public issue. Um, I understand that, you know, as somebody that has access to PACER and other, you know, ways, other, other databases that What I would like to have happen, ideally, and whats going to happen are probably two different things. Im very cognizant of that fact. Um, but I think in speaking with you today, youre more, youre more than willing to advocate for me. JC: I am. I am. I understand, and I, I want to make sure I understand your priorities. Youre, youre MK: I, I also understand that as far as your abilities theres only so much that you can do. That is not going to be, and I, I think is where youre concern is. That is not going to be a deciding factor in how much or how little Im willing to cooperate as far as how much Im willing to cooperate. JC: I understand. And, like I say, I think youve judged me right. I am not, uh, here to make life difficult for you. I told you that at the beginning. We, we want you to have a successful career and to be successful in your endeavors, and we dont want that, um, to be derailed because of anything. Having said that, [UI] issues resolved, and, and well see where the chips fall. I mean, um, I cant predict what the future is going to be, but were not going to go out of our way to hurt your career or your professional life or anything.
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MK: You have a job to do, and I understand that. I, I do want JC: Why, why dont we leave him with a piece of paper and a pencil. I want to start on these computers because I got all of these guys out there, and I dont want them, um, with the roommates and, if thats ok? MK: Are they able to come in here? JC: Yea, what they got to do, typically, what well do is they want to photograph where, where it is in place. So MK: Ive moved this since weve been in here. JC: The, the laptop? MK: Yea. JC: Ok. MK: Because I had to move JC: Well make a note of that. Thats still, theyre still going to want to make a note that it was on the bed. MK: And, that youre more than willing JC: And then MK: And, youre more than welcome to open it. I will give them the credentials to log into profiles. JC: Ok. MK: [UI] passwords. JC: Oh, wonderful. Ok. MK: Um, I would prefer not to tell you my password, but if you ask me for it JC: You know its, uh, we can get that easy. Its all, uh, its, we could get that easy, I mean its hashed, the password is available. MK: [UI] to a certain level. I understand that people can get those. Um, yea, I mean [UI]. JC: You know, again, it goes, it, uh
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MK: [UI]. JC: Let me go get them, and you can wait here. Why dont you start on that, and essentially Ill give you, you can [UI]. One is cooperate. MK: I will say though as far as [UI]. JC: Yea. Ok, Ill keep it on [UI]. Willing to cooperate, two is I did take the emails, uh, from, uh MK: Can I grab that paper from you because Id like to write these down as youre saying them. Thank you. GA: Yea, of course. MK: And, Ill, Ill start a fresh piece [UI]. JC: But, I the issues Two is the emails and want it to be your own words, Matt. I mean, I these, these are that I want to cover. One is that your willingness to cooperate. emails and, and Fox News in Sacramento that you took those that you were sending them under the, uh
MK: The third was the credentials, right? JC: And, the third is that you gave the credentials to the CMS, uh, to the guys on And the most important thing in my opinion MK: [UI] dated? JC: Yea, if it helps, yea. I mean, uh MK: [UI] GA: Yea. JC: And, were going to give this to the prosecutor largely to explain the key issues of cooperation and remorse which, uh, as you know are important given where youre at. MK: And, I would be more than happy to speak with him or her as well. JC: And, there, there will come a time for that because theyre gonna wanna kind of go over. MK: What I dont know is possible, and Ill be completely honest with you now, is I dont know that I could go to Sacramento to do it. JC: We, uh, in terms of time? Or, in terms of money?
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JC: We, uh, in terms of time? Or, in terms of money? MK: In terms of both. JC: Ok. MK: Now, I understand JC: But, well, we MK: I understand you have resources to make that happen. Um JC: Well MK: Dont get me wrong, Ive, Ive covered enough of these. JC: Yea. MK: I, I understand how that happens. What Im saying is in terms of, its really in terms of time and taking time off from work. JC: Well, its, uh MK: [UI] JC: -- theres other things we can do there. The prosecutor, theres, theres a situation called Rule 20, which all the legal stuff happens in New York. MK: Mmm hmm. JC: So, it, it just depends on the prosecutor, really. Whether theyre going to do what they call a Rule 20 which essentially moves venue. You would waive venue, which is California. MK: Which is what I think I did for Monsegur, right? JC: Uh, [UI], I think they did. I think he waived venue. But, then, you gotta get the, yea. He would waive venue, but then you gotta cause yea any charging would have to be, done out here in New York. I, you know, anything, I mean again, we dont control that, but there are mechanisms in place to help you with your goals, and well make sure that gets communicated and give you an opportunity to communicate with the prosecutor. MK: Sure. I would ideally like to communicate with the prosecutor before that happens. In a perfect a world that would JC: What well probably, uh, well probably have to figure out how to do
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JC: What well probably, uh, well probably have to figure out how to do the, the mechanism to do that. MK: Let me tell you before you leave where, where everything is. Uh, theres a computer there. JC: Yup. MK: Theres an iPad in there. Theres one right there. There should be two hard drives in that, um, dresser. Uh, the TV has the ability to plug in the USB drive. There may be one behind the TV. There is a USB drive floating around here somewhere. Um JC: Let, let me get the guys who are going to collect it with the camera and everything MK: And, Ill tell them [UI]. JC: And, you can tell them where everything is. JC: Hey guys, sorry to bother you, he needs, uh, hes got a camera, hes willing to show us where all the stuff is and what were going to take. UM6: [UI] camera, and hes got the log, so. JC: Well, lets go. UM6: Alright. JC: Sorry, Im sensitive to you sitting out here. [Laughter] UMS: No, no, no. [UI] JC: Yea, yea. UM7: Alright, do we have a garbage bag? UM8: Whats that? Ill bring one. UM7: Yea, just put one in the [UI]. JC: Have the roommates taken off? UM9: Yea, yea, I think they both [UI]. JC: Ok. Are they, uh, calm, or?
UM9: They were fine. I think one worked at Fox News.
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UM9: They were fine. I think one worked at Fox News. JC: Oh, ok. UM9: So [UI]. JC: Trying to make, write a story or something? UM9: Yea, I dont know. UM10: Are you, uh [UI] JC: Yea. Huh? UM10: [UI] JC: Yes. MK: [UI]. Im sorry, whats the time? JC: Its 8 oclock. GA: Yea. MK: Its 8 oclock? GA: Yea. MK: Do you mind if you guys can come in. Do mind if I go over there and turn the alarm off? JC: Yea. MK: Before it goes off. JC: Yea. MK: Ok. [UI] JC: Alright, Matts going to show us where the stuff is, and then hes got, hes going to write a little note there for us. And, your roommates are gone, so. MK: They probably went to work. JC: Yea. MK: Um, smart phone right there, ok.
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UM11: Do you want us to take overall photos first? Do you guys want to step outside? JC: Oh yea, well step back. What, typically what they do here, Matt, is theyll take overall photos kind of show the layout of the room and everything. UM11: [UI] MK: Uh, Ill get to this, yea, in a second, Ive, Ive gotta JC; Well, just show them where everything is. UM12: Yea, so smart phone is right over there. MK: The smart phone is there. UM12: Ok. MK: Um, theres, uh, an Apple iPad in that bag. UM12: Which bag? Are we talking about the smaller or the large one? MK: The small one is mine. The large one is [UI]. UM12: Ok, alright. So theres an Apple iPad in there, ok. MK: Um, there also maybe a USB thumb drive in there. UM12: Ok. MK: Um, theres also a Kindle. UM12: Ok. MK: I dont know if thats of any interest to you guys. UM12: K. MK: Apple i- uh, theres, uh, uh, an Apple iMac right there. UM12: Mmm hmm. MK: There are two hard drives in, I believe theyre in this drawer of the dresser. UM12: What about this one here? Is that in addition to? MK: No, Im sorry, this is one of the two. Theres only two total. Theyre
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MK: No, Im sorry, this is one of the two. Theres only two total. Theyre both Toshiba. UM12: Ok. MK: Um, theres a black one. Theres also a gray one. UM12: Is this the gray one right here? MK: Oh, it is. So, theyre both on the dresser. UM12: Ok. MK: Um. UM12: Any thumb drives or anything? MK: No, but youre welcome to look. JC: How about behind the TV? UM12: How about the Western Digital box? Do you have anything stored on there? MK: So this is an Apple TV that UM12: Oh it is? I, it looks like the Western Di MK: To my knowledge theres nothing stored on it. UM12: Ok. MK: Youre welcome to take a look at it if you need to. Uh, if the thumb drive is not in the I dont want to touch anything. If the thumb drive is not in that bag, its behind the TV. Its plugged into the TV. JC: And, wheres the data were looking for, Matt? Which device is it on? Which, uh, hard drive? MK: I dont remember which one its on, but its [UI]. JC: One of the hard drives, and is there, which laptop did you actually use to communicate with, uhMK: For some of it, it is, um JC: The one in there. MK: The one in there.
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MK: The one in there. JC: Ok. MK: Mmm hmm. Sure. Theres a computer in there. Its on the top shelf of the UM12: Ok. MK: Closet. UM12: Mmm hmm. MK: Theres a Roku Box somewhere around here, but it doesnt have anything stored on it, and youre probably arent JC: Dont need that. GA: Clarifying question there for you, Matt. Um, I know you said that the computer you used is in there, but have you transferred some those logs to your, your Mac as well? MK: No. GA: So, the Mac has no records of, of this [UI]. MK: Ive plugged these hard drives into them, and I dont know to what capacity these hard drives can move data over. I can tell you that I havent deliberately moved any data or opened any, any files on this computer pertaining to that. This computer is totally devoid of situations. The computer that, that I think you guys are going to be more interested in is that one in there. GA: Just that there, and these two external hard drives. MK: One of these has the files on it, and one of them doesnt. And, to be honest with you, unless I plug it in, I wouldnt be able to tell which one is and which one isnt. GA: Ok. MK: Um. JC: Alright, what do you think here Gabe, do we want to, uh MK: One more thing.
JC: Yea.
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JC: Yea. MK: Theres a third computer. I no longer have access to it and that is the computer that half of the communication took place on. Its since been crashed because it just didnt work. JC: Where is that? MK: Im sorry? JC: Where is that computer? MK: Its, its gone. I, I JC: Oh, you threw it away. MK: I, I no longer have access to it. JC: Ok. MK: Its just gone. JC: Ok. MK: Um, that having JC: Did you sell it? Did throw it away? MK: That having been said its since been disposed of. That having been said anything that was on that computer JC: Is on the hard drive? MK: Is somewhere on there. So, its in that zip drive that I told you about. JC: Alright. MK: So, I would love to be able to offer that up to you. I just dont have [UI]. JC: How did you dispose of it? MK: So, I left it at my grandmothers house. JC: Ok. MK: And, she got rid of it.
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JC: Ok. MK: Um, and I will call her and ask her. JC: Alright. Uh. MK: It may actually, we may actually been able, be able to I dont know how she got rid of it. JC: Alright. MK: Ill ask her, and if its something that I can reasonably get access to. JC: Well, we wont reach out to her. I mean, uh, youve asked us not to contact your family so, uh. MK: I, I will reach out to her, and if she can give me, if she JC: Knows where it is. MK: If she gave it to a relative or knows where it is or, or disposed of it, I can at least figure out what she did with it. If she threw it in the trash or [UI]. JC: Alright. So, these we definitely need to take with us. MK: This one. JC: What else do we need take? GA: The laptop out there. I dont think that we need to take this one. Hes being forthcoming with MK: Would you like to look at it? UM13: Um. JC: Ill, I GA: I guess I could take a quick look through it while you make your, your statement. MK: Sure, thats fine. JC: And, uh, how about on the thumb drive? Whats on the thumb drive? MK: Thumb drive is exclusively used for work.
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MK: Thumb drive is exclusively used for work. JC: Ok. MK: So, that has, uh, passwords to our social media profiles. We were hacked into not too long ago, um, or phished. I think we were phished. Uh, and so the only thing on that, uh, thumb drive are Reuters passwords and movies because I play them on my TV [UI]. JC: Ok. So we dont need that. And, um, cell phones? MK: And, again, youre welcome to look at that if youd like. Cell phones. Didnt use that at all for theJC: Ok. MK: The Anonymous thing. There is a text message that I sent to somebody that I think is Jack Davies. Youre welcome to look at that. Um, but there was no response on his end. JC: Ok. MK: And, I dont even know that I was given correct information. JC: So this, this, and the closet is what we care about. MK: And, youre welcome to have those. JC: Alright. Why dont you work on that for me, uh, your notes. MK: Now, I know you guys can do forensics things. JC: Yea. MK: One other thing that I want to mention. These have never been erased. They are from, you know, from the day I bought them theyve had information stored on them and taken off them. Theyve never been formatted. That computer has been. JC: Ok. MK: And, it has, and its not because it was formatted due to anything involving this. Its because it got slow, and I just took everything off it [UI]. JC: Ok.
UMS: Was it formatted or was it wiped like zeroes and ones? I mean, was it,
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UMS: Was it formatted or was it wiped like zeroes and ones? I mean, was it, was it wiped? MK: I did, um, so theres an option on the Mac, uh, where you can do like a secure, where it just rewrites the data a bunch of times. GA: Ok. MK: I chose that option. I think I got frustrated with how long it took because that computer is slow, and I canceled out of it and just did a fresh install. JC: Alright. Well, well see what, uh, comes up on that. MK: Yea, youre welcome to take them. JC: So, its a, uh. Id do the forensics in Sacramento so Im familiar with, uh, Linux or the HFS. Alright, well, uh, you guys are ready? UMS: Were ready, yea. JC: Uh, you, you want to do it out here? Or you wanna MK: Yea. Can I grab that [UI]. JC: Yea, you can take your affidavit there, search warrant and. MK: Alright. JC: [UI]. And, Ill, uh, step out here with you. MK: Im going [UI] if thats ok? JC: Thats fine. MK: [UI] JC: Yea, why dont you, uh, just pick a chair. Im going to pull this around for you here on that side so you can sit and take notes. MK: [UI] JC: Thats our stuff. MK: Ok. JC: Yea, theyre getting ready, were getting ready to, uh Oops, Im sorry. Im so sorry.
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sorry. Im so sorry. UMS: [UI] JC: Have a seat right there, Matt. UM14: [UI] JC: No, I dont think we need that. Thats alright. GA: Just trying to avoid. JC: Im going to step out for a second here. [UI] Alright So the time is 8:05 [FBI Note: 1D2 Ends] We started at a roughly a little after 6 am.[FBI Note: 1D1 Ends]

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